The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Good afternoon. We begin our meeting for today.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

The first item will be questions to the Minister for Climate Change, postponed from 14 September, and the first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and is to be asked by Natasha Asghar.

Reducing Carbon Emissions

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Minister, there is a growing—. Sorry.

Natasha Asghar AS: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce carbon emissions in Wales? OQ58380

Lee Waters AC: Diolch. Last year, we raised our ambition to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050, and, ahead of COP26 last year, we published Net Zero Wales, our emissions reduction plan, which we are now working on implementing, and our current climate change adaptation plan, 'A Climate Conscious Wales'.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Deputy Minister. Apologies, I think I just got excited being back for the first day officially, or the second day.
There's a growing awareness that our diet and food choices have a significant impact on our carbon footprint. Food transport, packaging and processing make up 6 per cent of carbon emissions from rich countries, so buying locally produced food means lower emissions. You recently announced two new schemes—a small grants woodland creation scheme, the woodland creation grant, with £32 million funding of funding for farmers and landowners to plant 86 million trees by the end of this decade. Now, concerns have been raised that encouraging tree planting could hinder our farmers' ability to produce food, so I'd like to ask, Deputy Minister, how these schemes will ensure that increasing tree cover, by increasing trees in Wales, will take place on land identified as less productive rather than on prime land, thereby sustaining local food production.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. As you know, the target of 86 million trees is the breakdown of what we need to plant to meet our carbon emission targets as set out by the UK Climate Change Committee, an independent body. We all sign up on a cross-party basis to achieving net zero. We endorse the work of the UK climate change commission. This is simply pointing out in practice what that will mean. We set up a deep-dive a year ago now to understand why we haven't been meeting our tree planting targets, and set out a series of practical actions, co-produced with the different sectors, to work through how we do that, and that includes a new sustainable farming scheme that my colleague Lesley Griffithshas published, and that sets out how we'll work with the farming community to achieve those targets.
It's a false dichotomy to say it's one or another; it's tree planting at the expense of growing food. That's simply not the case. And we want to work on the principle of the right tree in the right place, for sure, but also planting on the hedges and edges of farms, where farmers are happy to plant trees and it doesn't displace their primary activity. Overall, to meet those climate change committee targets, we do need a change in land use of some 10 per cent. So, there will be changes, because, without those changes, the farming sector simply will not be resilient. They'll not be able to produce the food we all rely upon because climate change will disrupt them. So, it's in all our interests to get beyond the headlines, to get beyond the division and work together to achieve something that can achieve our collective goals.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: One method that has been used effectively by the Welsh Government to decrease emissions, of course, is the introduction of speed limits on some roads in Wales. Not only does that bring environmental benefits, but it brings benefits in terms of safety for residents in those areas. And I want to point out that a campaign has been launched in Glasfryn near Cerrigydrudion to introduce speed limits there. If you travel on the A5 from Bangor all the way to Shrewsbury, Glasfryn is the only village on that journey where there are no speed limits in place, even though there are busy junctions in the village and homes only a metre or two from the side of the road. Indeed, what you see when you reach the village are national speed limit signs, which, to all intents and purposes, remind drivers to drive at 60 miles an hour, which is entirely unacceptable.
May I invite you, Deputy Minister, to meet with the local campaigners, under the leadership of Councillor Gwennol Ellis, either here in Cardiff or, better still, when you come to the north, so that you have an opportunity to visit Glasfryn and see for yourself the situation there and to understand why it's so important that the Welsh Government takes action on this straight away?

Lee Waters AC: Well, of course, we are taking action to reduce speed limits. All speeds on local roads will have a default speed limit of 20 mph from next September, with the ability for local authorities to provide for exceptions to keep it at 30 mph. And that, no doubt, will have a knock-on effect about people's sense of speed on other roads. So, we'll also be looking at our setting local speed limits policy. Also, we've announced in a written statement a short while ago that we've now received the full report of the roads review panel, which we'll be going through over the next couple of months, with officials looking in detail at each of the many recommendations they've made, and speed limits is very much central to their analysis of what we need to do, both to achieve our carbon emissions but also to save lives.
Clearly, local roads are the responsibility of local authorities. Trunk roads are the responsibility of the Welsh Government. And I recognise there are examples where a community feels the road speeds are too fast, and that is something we're going to look at as part of our overall package of modal shift.

The second question to be answered this afternoon by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and to be asked by Rhys ab Owen.

The Building Safety Fund

Rhys ab Owen AS: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the building safety fund? OQ58400

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our Welsh building safety fund is open for responsible persons to submit an expression of interest for residential buildings 11m or more. To date, 261 expressions of interest have been received and 163 require an intrusive survey. This survey work is ongoing and scheduled for completion early autumn.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Now, you may be aware that, last month, there were two balcony fires in the Victoria Wharf development, not far from here, in Cardiff Bay. Taylor Wimpey, the developer of that development, said over two years ago that they would be willing to do the remediation work there, but it still has not started. Now, I'm on record as saying that I wanted a Welsh Bill with regard to building safety, but the Government disagreed. When will you enact the legal protections within the UK Government Building Safety Act 2022?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As a Government, we were very concerned to hear of the recent fire you refer to at Victoria Wharf. I understand it may have been a result of the sun shining through an open balcony door and igniting some loose flakes of wood on a balcony and that led to the fire. I'm very relieved no one was hurt and the fire was put out quickly.
The Minister is continuing to work closely with UK Government colleagues and will be bringing forward the issue that you raise in the very near future. You'll be aware that we have our own Welsh building safety fund, which opened on 30 September last year, and it's good to see those expressions of interest that I referred to in the opening question. I think that's absolutely a starting point for accessing support, and I'm pleased to see that people have really grasped the importance of this.

Joel James MS: Minister, the fact remains that delays to the implementation of the Welsh Government's building safety fund has meant that many residents and owners of flats across Wales have been put into precarious financial positions, been unable to sell or remortgage their properties because lenders outright refuse to lend money when EWS1 certificates are not available, and surveys have not been carried out. The situation has been made worse because no definitive timeline has been given and people have been left in limbo for years, not knowing if the situation will ever be resolved. Not only is this devastating for those who own and bought their properties in good faith, it has stagnated the property market to such an extent that many future flat owners may be put off from purchasing in Wales. The fact of the matter now is that it's destroying what was once a healthy property market. Minister, what assessment has this Government made of the impact of the delay in providing fire risk surveys and assessments, and of the impact that building safety passports has had on the property market in Wales? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don't recognise the scenario the Member describes; 163 buildings have been identified for intrusive survey work already. Whilst I appreciate that work was hoped to be completed by the end of the summer, as I say, it is extended into the autumn. That's largely due to the need to secure permission from responsible owners to access buildings. The Minister continues to work very closely with developers in Wales and with the Home Builders Federation in respect of the developers pact. I think that's a very important piece of work that will bring forward a lot of comfort to many of the people that you refer to. The contracts will be signed very shortly, and I know the Minister is down to meet with the developers next month, in early October. I think you need to look at the significant work we've done in relation to this. This is a very important piece of work that's a priority for this Government, and the work is ongoing.

Jane Dodds AS: May I extend my best wishes to the Minister for Climate Change, who I know can't be here today, and thank you for taking the questions? I just want to echo the concerns of my colleague Rhys ab Owen in relation to the fire that happened recently. A fire is a fire. However it started, the concerns were that it could have spread and we could have ended up in a terrible situation, as was Grenfell five years ago. There are many aspects to this and I just wanted to pick on one, if I may. Many homeowners have taken developers themselves to court. Those developers have told the Welsh Government that they will, of course, make good their properties and abide by the developer agreement. We know that people cannot afford to just sit and wait, both physically, in terms of their own safety, and emotionally as well, with the stress that they're under. We know that there are six developers, who have been named, who are yet to engage in the list that was published in July. I just wondered, in the interests of transparency, whether you can commit to publishing a list of which developers have agreed to sign that developer agreement, which have refused or nor engaged, and what the consequences could be. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I share your concerns about the fire in Victoria Wharf. I'm sure the Minister will certainly consider your request. Certainly, from the information I have here, I think we're awaiting confirmation from one more developer around medium or high-rise buildings. I know the Minister is aware of some instances—I think a number of instances—where the responsible person and the managing agents have engaged with consultants privately to undertake that survey work, and I know the Minister is looking at reimbursing survey costs and looking at retrospective funding. I think she's always made it very, very clear that leaseholders should not be made to pay for fire safety issues that are not of their making, and I know she has another meeting, as I said, planned with developers.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, in 2019, the Welsh Government made a number of commitments regarding transparency, accountability and participation. One of these commitments was to raise awareness of the Welsh Government's finances, specifically about where money comes and how it is spent. You will be aware that I've tried on a number of occasions to discover the amount of money spent by you on road projects across Wales, before they were brought to a sudden halt by your roads review, only to be met by deliberate delay and obfuscation. It took a freedom of information request to discover that a total of £24 million was spent on road projects across Wales prior to this cancellation. This comes after your Government wasted £157 million on the M4 relief road project. Welsh businesses are crying out for better road infrastructure, and communities, such as Llanbedr, desperately need relief roads or bypasses to relieve pollution and congestion. So, Deputy Minister, will you now abandon this absurd policy of freezing road improvement projects in Wales and actually invest in the infrastructure we so desperately need?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I'm not sure why this is such a complicated policy to grasp, really. We have all committed to meeting our climate change targets. Seventeen per cent of the emissions come from transport. Now, that means we need to take a different approach to transport if we're going to meet those net-zero goals, because transport has been the slowest changing sector since the targets were first set in 1990. So, we need a different approach. There doesn't seem to be a basic understanding of that on the Conservative benches. They sign up to the high-level targets, but when you then have to translate what that means in practice they run away from it, and the politics of it are difficult, but we need leadership in these challenging times. I understand from the new Prime Minister that she's committed to achieving net zero: she's announced that she's going to increase drilling in the North sea; she's going to start fracking; and she's going to, quote, 'build roads faster'. Well, each of those will increase our emissions. They'll take us further away from achieving the net zero that we heard from Boris Johnson, just last November at COP, that they were committed to do. So, there's a complete cognitive dissonance on the Tory benches between what they say they want to do and what they're actually prepared to support.
Now, we've looked at an evidence-based approach through an expert panel on road building to look to schemes currently in development, not the ones being built, which will carry on, but those not yet commenced, to see whether those are consistent with achieving our Wales transport strategy objectives in order to achieve our carbon budgets. As I say, we've just received that report. We're going through that in detail, and we'll be making a statement to the Senedd in the autumn about it. But it's clear, from the tone again of her statements, that she's not prepared to face up to the consequences of her own promises.

Natasha Asghar AS: Deputy Minister, I know you love to bring in the UK Government, but let's focus on Wales, which is what you and I are responsible for here. So, you must agree that inadequate road infrastructure is actually damaging businesses and hindering job creation at a time when we are just recovering from the effects of the pandemic. Your failure to improve roads means increased congestion, higher carbon emissions, and makes the economy less productive and competitive. The Road Haulage Association has said that your approach is, and I quote,
'incoherent, unsustainable and will damage business, jobs and mobility in Wales while failing to address climate change.'
Logistics UK said the logistics industry relies on efficient roadworks to keep the nation stocked with all the goods our economy needs to function and that freezes on all new road building projects is, in fact, a step backwards. Even the Labour MP—not Conservative, the Labour MP—for Alyn and Deeside criticised the decision to cancel the road in Flintshire, which would reduce air pollution for his constituents living in Ashton and Shotton. So, Deputy Minister, do you accept that the efficient and cost-effective movement of goods is fundamental for the economy and that your anti-roads approach, which we've seen again and again, to addressing climate change is out of date as we move to a new, cleaner, greener vehicle spectrum?

Lee Waters AC: I appreciate the Member will have written that down before she had a chance to listen to what I said and the challenge that I gave to her. I don't accept the premise of her point. The movement of goods and people is clearly critical. That is not currently possible because we have congestion. You don't solve congestion by building more roads. There's ample international evidence that if you build more road capacity, you encourage more traffic, which leads to greater congestion and then demands for more road building. And we've been doing that for over 50 years. They shake their heads, but I'd like to see the evidence they have to contradict what I've just said. The academic research on that is absolutely clear. And if we can remove traffic from the roads that doesn't need to be there, that, in fact, opens up space for the freight sector.
We obviously want to see freight shifting from roads onto railways where that's possible, but failure to adequately invest in the railways by the Conservative Government in Wales, where we are £5 billion short of investment—which, again, if they were sincere in their views, they would acknowledge—has hampered our ability to achieve modal shift from road to rail for freight. But it's simply not the case that we have inadequate roads at the moment. What we have not been doing is sufficiently investing in maintaining existing roads. And one of the objectives of the roads review is to look at how we could move investment away from building new roads to look after the ones we have and, as we do it, encourage modal shift.
I again say to the Member on the benches opposite, you've signed up to net zero by 2050, 17 per cent of emissions come from transport—how do you plan to cut those emissions so that we meet our targets? I wait to hear your answer.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much for the answer. Firstly, I would actually improve things by giving us some electric vehicle charging points, which I've stood here countless times, again and again, requesting all across Wales, which is what we're responsible for here, Deputy Minister. The simple fact is that your Government has objectively failed to provide Wales with the road infrastructure it needs and deserves. We are not in a time when we are on horses and carts. This is not Little House on the Prairie; we are actually in Wales in 2022. Your imposition of a 20 mph speed limit is unpopular and proving counterproductive. More than 1,600 people have signed a petition calling for a public poll on this change—a demand that is currently being considered by the Petitions Committee. And Monmouthshire County Council has already confirmed that two areas in Caldicot will in fact revert to 30 mph after congestion was made worse. To add insult to injury, your transport strategy plans to introduce road tolls and congestion charges. So, Deputy Minister, cars in Wales are a necessity because public transport here is unreliable, inconvenient and, in many places, non-existent, thanks to 22 years of Welsh Labour Government. But my question is: when will you stop trying to force drivers off the road and stop punishing motorists for the dismal record of failure?

Lee Waters AC: I'm not sure how you put a sigh on the Record, Llywydd, but perhaps that—

I think you just have. [Laughter.]

Lee Waters AC: Excellent. Mission accomplished, in that case.
I don't know where to begin, really. First of all, there has been no imposition of 20 mph speed limits. The Senedd agreed by overwhelming majority at the beginning of the summer to change the default speed limit. It's entirely within the power of local highways authorities to make exceptions to that. And by the way, that process only happened with the support of Conservative Members in the Senedd. It was Conservative Members who voted to set up the process of a taskforce for 20 mph; it was Conservative Members in the last Senedd who voted to bring this policy forward. There's a picture circulating of Andrew R.T. Davies with Rod King on—[Interruption.] Natasha Asghar is now distancing herself from the leader of the Welsh Conservative group, but very clearly, this would not have happened had it not been for the support of Conservative Members. We are now following through on that and this Senedd has democratically voted to take it forward, giving the full power to local authorities to set their own speed limits under the exceptions criteria. So, that's simply false and erroneous and misleading and disingenuous.
In terms of electric vehicles, of course, we want people to switch to electric vehicles. I've switched to an electric car and I must say, it's a pleasant experience. But the UK Climate Change Committee are very clear: we're not going to achieve net zero by switching to electric vehicles. Again, that is another false point not based on fact or evidence. And I know that the Member's speeches are often fact-free zones, but they need to have some tethering to reality. We clearly need to reduce the amount of journeys we make, and we have a target of a 10 per cent reduction in car journeys. Of those journeys we do make, we need to make more of them by public transport, and of the journeys that can only be made by car—and there are a minority of journeys that can only be made by car—we want them to be done as quickly as possible by electric vehicles. I pay credit to the UK Government for setting an ambitious target for stopping sales of petrol vehicles by the end of the decade. It was a bold and innovative move of theirs, which I support wholly. But I'm afraid yet again the Conservative benches are not willing to follow the evidence on following through their commitment to achieving net zero. I ask again: if every single thing we announce you're opposed to, what's your alternative?

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I would also like to extend my best wishes to the Minister for Climate Change and hope for her speedy recovery.
Minister, the Welsh Government has set a target of net zero emissions by 2050 and is, through our co-operation agreement, examining advice that could potentially bring this forward to 2050. The climate and nature crises, interwoven as they are, are the greatest threats facing our country, our world. So, achieving net zero as quickly as possible is vital. On Thursday 8 September, Liz Truss set out the UK Government's response to high energy prices, including accelerating new oil and gas licensing and lifting the ban on fracking. The newly appointed Secretary of State for business, Jacob Rees-Mogg, has made his scepticism about tackling climate change clear. He is an investor in oil and coal mining through Somerset Capital Management and has recently stated, and I quote,
'We need to be thinking about exploiting every last cubic inch of gas from the North Sea'.
This would spell disaster for the climate and would severely undermine efforts to reach net zero. So, what I'd like to know, Minister, is what discussions the Welsh Government has had, or plans to have, with the UK Government about how the implications of their new energy policies will impact on our net zero plans in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I share the disbelief I think you're expressing, and frustration, in the announcements that came from UK Government, and, clearly, their obsession with fossil fuels. It is deeply depressing, I think, to see how far back they want to go. As you heard the First Minister say very clearly yesterday, there will be no fracking here in Wales, and I think that will be shared by the Plaid Cymru bench, the pleasure in that. I think it's so disappointing and so frustrating that the UK Government don't share our ambition. Like you said, we're looking to be net zero by 2050, and with the co-operation agreement—. I think you meant 2035, but yes, as you say, we are currently exploring that. The thing is, and this is a real reality, the UK cannot reach its targets without our support, but we in Wales can't reach our target either without the UK Government helping us and playing its part—its fair part, I think it's fair to say—here in Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. The second and final question I'd like to ask is on another issue—community empowerment. It cuts across portfolios, including climate change and also rural affairs. But focusing on this portfolio, there was community anger in Llanbradach recently after a private company destroyed a beautiful bluebell woodland that was important to many people. The company had failed to seek planning permission and had pledged to restore the site after hundreds protested, and thank goodness that they did. While the destruction contravened existing regulations, it could have been prevented had the site been in public ownership. The Institute of Welsh Affairs recently has published a report advocating passing a community empowerment Bill, which would enable communities to take ownership of local assets that are deemed significant. The report states that Wales has the fewest statutory rights in Britain in relation to land. Obviously, community voices could be and, I would argue, should be a lot stronger as well. Could you tell me what the Welsh Government's position is in terms of introducing legislation to empower communities so that places like Llanbradach and all over Wales can ensure that these treasured community assets are protected, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm not aware that the Minister is looking at anything. I would suggest that you write to her. But I think the point you raise is really important. If you look at the local development plan process, for instance, it's very transparent, and it needs to have that community involvement. I would think that the Minister would be very keen to increase community involvement. Going back to your first question about the nature emergency, the last thing we would want to see is the destruction of an area such as the one you describe.

Question 3 [OQ58406] has been withdrawn.

New Energy Production Developments

Darren Millar AC: 4. How does the Welsh Government ensure that communities' voices are heard with regard to new energy production developments? OQ58393

Lee Waters AC: Engagement and consultation are central to the planning process, and opportunities for communities to express their views on energy schemes are integral to both the preparation of development plans and the determination of planning applications.

Darren Millar AC: Planning guidance is also critical when it comes to engagement. Given the fact that 'Future Wales' has set out an ambition for significant additional windfarms to be built onshore across the country, there are many communities now that are concerned about the potential impacts upon them, and indeed many businesses that are concerned about the potential impacts upon them, too. One such area is the area in the north of my constituency between Betws-yn-Rhos and Moelfre and as far down as Llanfair Talhaearn, where there is a proposal that is being brought forward by a windfarm company for turbines of up to 250m tall, which could be in very close proximity to people's homes. Given that there's no clear guidance from the Welsh Government on acceptable levels of noise, distance of turbines from property and the size of onshore wind turbines, does the Welsh Government intend to review the guidance that is available to developers, for local communities to hold developers to account through the planning process that now might follow?

Lee Waters AC: I understand there are often concerns when there are large infrastructure projects. I well remember the claims made when Gwynt y Môr was being developed by people in Llandudno claiming that visitors would stay away from the tourist destination, which has clearly proven to be unfounded. So, we should note there are people who are concerned. There are also people who are very supportive of renewable energy, not least now in the energy crisis we face, where wind is the easiest to deploy and the cheapest to commission. So, we certainly shouldn't turn our face against wind.
As you rightly say, we have set out pre-assessed areas for wind energy that establishes a presumption in favour of large-scale wind development. That doesn't, however, give a blank cheque to developers to put what they like there; they have to pass a series of checks that are set out in policy 18 of 'Future Wales', which includes noise. So, there are detailed criteria listed under that where they have to pass the test. Our officials will be making sure that the proposals are subject to acute examination, but there's no getting away from the fact that we do need to see far more wind deployed quickly if we are to meet both our need for energy security, but also for carbon neutrality.

Huw Irranca-Davies is not here to ask question 5 [OQ58376]. Question 6, Peter Fox.

Improving Water Security

Peter Fox AS: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve water security in Wales? OQ58387

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our natural resources are under pressure from climate change, extreme weather and population growth. A more integrated and sustainable approach to the way we manage our water resources will enable us to maximise economic and social benefits in an equitable way, whilst protecting vital ecosystems and the environment.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. All of us in this Chamber know that this summer has been exceptionally hot and dry for a long period of time; indeed, March to August this year is likely to be the third-driest six-month period since records began in 1865. Despite a recent increase in rainfall, Natural Resources Wales confirmed earlier this month that all parts of Wales have moved to drought status. Obviously, this is of concern for people across the country who will need a reliable water supply for basic everyday activity. The lack of rainfall has placed even more pressure on the agricultural sector at an already difficult time, potentially increasing the cost of food further. Minister, how is the Welsh Government working with partners such as the UK Government, Welsh Water and NRW to secure better water supplies in Wales, and what considerations are you giving to accessing additional water supplies? I'll give you an example in my own constituency, where the water being pumped out from the Severn tunnel—the great spring, some 11 million gallons a day—is pouring into the Severn estuary. Some of that water is already used by a local brewery, some used to be used by the old paper mill, but there are 11 million gallons a day, and that could be perfect water that could be funneled and tunneled into local reservoirs, or whatever. It's just an example of how we could do more in this changing time we have.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member is right; we are in drought status right across Wales, and certainly we've seen some prolonged dry weather this year. I think, again, it reflects the challenges that we do face in tackling climate change. I think one of the first things I would say is it's really important that we all, every single one of us—every member of the public, every business—use water wisely, and that we continue to use water wisely not just while we're in drought status, but all the time, and manage this very precious resource at this time. The Welsh Government brought together a drought liaison group—that was convened, I think, probably, early August. That continues to meet weekly, and that brings all stakeholders from right across Wales together to help steer the direction and agree the actions that we need to protect Welsh water resources. NRW's drought teams across Wales continue to meet regularly and, certainly, from my own portfolio, from an agricultural point of view, my officials continue to meet with them as well. There's a lot of ecological monitoring going on. They respond to incidents very quickly.
The point you raise around the Severn tunnel, I am aware of that. I think there have been some further discussions, or I think the Minister is looking, perhaps, to have some further discussions—I know that there were some in the past—between the water companies and Network Rail to see what could be done, maybe the potential transfer of the pumped tunnel water, for instance, to the main supply infrastructure. I don't think there have been any recent developments, but as I say, I think the Minister is looking to see what further can be done.

Freezing Rents and Suspending Evictions

Carolyn Thomas AS: 7. Will the Welsh Government commit to freezing rents and suspending evictions to help tenants through the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58395

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Since November 2021, we have announced £380 million of funding to help Welsh households manage the cost-of-living crisis. On 1 December this year, the law will change to provide better protection and clearer rights for tenants in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Okay, thank you. Earlier this month, the Scottish Government committed that they would be freezing rents and suspending evictions to help tenants through the cost-of-living crisis. This year, Wales has seen the highest increase in the cost of renting outside London, with rents up to an eye-watering 13.9 per cent increase, on average. This comes alongside rising fuel, energy and food prices, which are hitting people across Wales in the pocket. Does the Minister agree with me that Welsh Government could act as soon as possible to ensure that tenants are not pushed further, through evictions and rent increases? I understand that social housing rent is set on an annual basis, and if something could be done at least until the end of March next year to help them through winter, it would be really appreciated, just as the Scottish Government are doing.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am aware that the Minister completely understands the calls for urgent action on rent control. But I think it's absolutely vital that any steps that the Welsh Government takes to address the issues don't lead to a reduction in the private rented sector or a potential rise in homelessness. I think unintended consequences must be obviously avoided.
The Minister has asked for some research to be undertaken, because I think you need that stronger evidence base before you bring in any new legislation. So, that research has been commissioned to make sure that she has that robust evidence base, so that she can understand fully the potential impact of any measures that the Welsh Government should take. Welsh Government's also committed to publishing a White Paper on new approaches to affordable rents for local people on local incomes, and a right to adequate housing, and obviously that forms part of the agreement with Plaid Cymru in relation to the co-operation agreement. I mentioned in December that the legislation would come into force and the minimum notice period for no-fault evictions for new tenants will be increased to six months, and the Welsh Government's currently consulting on extending the minimum notice period to existing tenants. That again would increase the security of tenure.

James Evans MS: Minister, while the idea of rent controls and suspending evictions may seem like a good idea to help people, history shows us that it's not a good solution to fix the problems that we currently face. In 2017, the Irish Government brought in rent controls, and that led to a housing shortage, higher rents due to loopholes and landlords withdrawing properties from the market. The reason why rents are so high is because we don't have enough houses here in Wales. We need to prioritise house building to increase supply and reduce demand. So, does the Minister agree with me that if rent controls are introduced, we will potentially see a rise in homelessness and more rental accommodation being put on the open market, as landlords leave the sector, thus compounding the issues we currently face?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Member will have heard me say in my answer to Carolyn Thomas that I think it's really important that we don't have unintended consequences. And one of the things I think that could happen is that you could see landlords exiting the market in large numbers, and that, therefore, would reduce the supply of property, which could lead to significantly increased homelessness. There are other potential unintended consequences as well. If you look at international evidence, you will see that rent control measures can create a target rather than a cap, and I think, again, that's a very important thing to avoid. Obviously, the Welsh Government's priority is the 20,000 new houses for the rented sector over the term of Government.

Protecting Ancient Woodlands

Hefin David AC: 8. What Welsh Government policies and legislation are in place to protect ancient woodlands? OQ58392

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Our planning policies set out a strong framework for the protection of trees, including ancient woodlands. We are amending the Forestry Act 1967 to provide better protection for the environment and a more effective deterrent for illegal felling. Our sustainable farm scheme will provide support to protect and manage ancient woodlands.

Hefin David AC: Thank you for that answer. The issue I'm about to raise was raised at spokespersons' questions. It's always good to see party spokespeople involving themselves in the work, however fleetingly, of directly elected Members. Over the summer, residents of Llanbradach in my constituency were horrified to find that contractors had started digging up land on a site locally known as Bluebell wood. This area has been very important to the local community for generations and holds great sentimental value to many people. The excavation work started without planning permission, and following community campaigning has been stopped on the orders of Caerphilly County Borough Council. However, residents are fearful that without sufficient protections in place the work could start again at any time, especially as the land is privately owned. Can the Minister therefore advise on what options are available to the local community to try and ensure that these woods are protected for future generations?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I know that there is concern right across the community in Llanbradach and Caerphilly about the destruction of the Bluebell woodlands, and it was distressing to see some of the pictures. I think, if there's any positive to come out of it, it is the fact that there has been such a strong community reaction, who understand the value that biodiversity has to their area. I think we've got a long way to go to make sure that developers also understand the value.
I think our policy framework is strong; it sets clearly out in 'Planning Policy Wales' that planning authorities should protect ancient woodlands, semi-natural woodlands, and individual veteran and ancient trees. NRW's standing advice to authorities also makes clear that planning permission should be refused if the development would result in a loss or deterioration of the ancient woodland, unless there are wholly exceptional reasons. I believe that, in this case, action was taken to clear the land before planning permission was applied for, and there is enforcement action being taken by the local authority. So, I think I should pay tribute to the leader and cabinet member of Caerphilly council and the community council for taking strong action when they became aware that this destruction had taken place. The community can request that tree preservation orders be made on trees that they consider to be of value, but I think this is an example of where it's important that we all come together to make sure that, if there are transgressions, they're dealt with severely and that we raise the level of appreciation for ancient woodlands so that action isn't taken in the first place.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'd very much like to get Welsh Government's help in protecting the ancient woodland at Penrhos coastal park in Holyhead. Permission was given around a decade ago to build a holiday park there; I don't think that permission should have been given then, certainly now, in the context of our new understanding of the depth of the climate and biodiversity emergencies and the appreciation of green public spaces, it certainly feels wrong. Now, I'd like to congratulate the rural affairs Minister on her expanded role, which includes, and I quote: local environment quality; the protection and management of wildlife; allotment and urban green infrastructure; community green spaces; access to the countryside; coasts; rights of way; and areas of outstanding natural beauty. It sounds like a description of a minister for Penrhos. So, Deputy Minister—it would be easier if I was asking the Minister herself this question—but how can you work with her to make sure that this ancient woodland, the only woodland of its kind near Holyhead, can be protected?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think it is difficult when local authorities have given planning permission, and, as you said, it was some time ago. You'd like to think that, given the policy framework I've set out, that wouldn't happen if planning permission was given freshly today. What we can do retrospectivelyobviously is a more complex question, and certainly one I'd encourage him to engage in a conversation with his own council on Ynys Môn about. And we'd certainly be open to a conversation. These are delicate judgments, aren't they? But I think the problem that we all face is that developers can often make exceptional arguments in particular cases, but the cumulative impact is a considerable one, and we are facing not only a climate emergency but a nature emergency too. When it comes to individual decisions, these are often complex and sometimes opaque. So, I'm afraid I don't have a glib answer for him today, other than that I think he raises a set of reasonable points that we do need to reflect on with the local authority to see what the options might be.

Help for Tenants

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 9. What steps will the Government take to help tenants during the current cost-of-living crisis? OQ58408

Lesley Griffiths AC: Since November 2021, we've announced £380 million funding to help Welsh households manage the cost-of-living crisis. Leasing Scheme Wales is improving access to longer term affordable private rented sector housing. An additional £6 million homelessness prevention fund has been provided to local authorities to help sustain tenancies for people and avoid homelessness.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for stepping in at the last moment. May I extend my best wishes to the Minister for a speedy recovery too?
Tenants and housing associations alike are extremely concerned about the next few months and find it difficult to forward plan and to fund without assurance as to the rates of benefits. The noises made by Liz Truss, the new Prime Minister, suggest that benefits may be cut, and that is extremely concerning, particularly because rents are paid through the universal credit system, and of course the local housing allowance has been frozen since 2020. What discussions, therefore, have you had with the new Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in London? And have you brought pressure to bear on her and the new Prime Minister to ensure that benefit levels increase in order to meet the increase in living costs, particularly rents, and that they also increase to increase the local housing allowance level?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You raise a very important point, and clearly the Welsh Government needs to work very closely with the UK Government in relation to many of the issues you raise. You'll appreciate that the new Government coming in hasn't been a usual—. They certainly haven't had a honeymoon period, have they? It's been a difficult time to engage with the new Ministers, so I'm not aware of any specific conversations that have taken place.
I referred before to the homelessness prevention fund, and that £6 million that the Welsh Government brought forward was to plug a gap that the UK Government left with the budget reductions that were brought forward by the Department for Work and Pensions. And whilst the Welsh Government will continue to do all it can to help people with the unprecedented cost-of-living crisis, we have to recognise that we can't plug every gap. But I'm sure that the Minister will be having discussions with her new counterpart when she returns to work.

The A465 Dualling Work

Heledd Fychan AS: 10. How is the Welsh Government supporting residents affected by the A465 dualling work in the Hirwaun area? OQ58407

Lee Waters AC: Transport for Wales is the acting authority responsible on behalf of the Welsh Government for ensuring that the contractor is fulfilling their responsibilities and duties to the residents of Hirwaun and those affected in the area.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. On 8 August, I attended a public meeting in Hirwaun arranged by local councillors Karen Morgan and Adam Rogers. It was clear that the work was having a major impact on individuals and businesses, and although there was an acknowledgement of the impact from Future Valleys Construction and Rhondda Cynon Taf council, it was clear that there were no short-term solutions to the problems raised, including major concerns regarding safety following an increase in accidents in the area due to the work. May I invite the Minister to visit the area and to meet local councillors and residents to see the impact of this work—work commissioned by the Government—and work with Future Valleys Construction, through Transport for Wales, to seek urgent solutions before someone is seriously injured or killed in an accident, and before businesses in the area fail due to the impact on them?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I fully acknowledge that large road schemes like this are disruptive. They are noisy. They do cause harm to the environment. They do create considerable emissions. It's one of the reasons why we are reviewing our approach to road building. Just to note one point that Heledd Fychan made about this road being commissioned by the Government, I think it was commissioned by Ieuan Wyn Jones when he was the transport Minister when there was a coalition Government, so I don't think it'squite fair to make the insinuation that she does. It is being led, as you know, by a consortium, the Future Valleys consortium, and they assure us they have a whole series of measures in place to liaise with the local community, they have a range of engagement activities, they have a large reach on social media where they'll inform people when there are road closures. There is a community outreach officer whose role it is to meet with residents and community councillors who have concerns, and that's the right place to take the concerns. If you don't feel that you are getting satisfactory answers, by all means get in touch with me again, but that should be the first port of call.
As I say, we do need to think very hard about these large, expensive and difficult road schemes and whether or not continuing to do what we've always done is going to produce the result that we all want to see if we're going to achieve net zero and we're going to achieve well-being in our communities.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, postponed from 14 September. The first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Support for Students

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. What steps will the Welsh Government take to support students undertaking undergraduate university courses that are eligible for NHS funding? OQ58403

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Government is working with Health Education and Improvement Wales to review the NHS Wales bursary scheme. We recognise the impact of increasing costs of living on healthcare professional students and we're working to identify immediate actions that could provide additional support.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, you've answered my next question, and thank you for that, because I was going to highlight the fact that a constituent who is starting to study an adult nursing degree this year has contacted me explaining that they will receive £5,855 per year to help with living costs. Of course, self-catering accommodation for students is over £6,000 in his case, so there is a problem there, never mind getting food on the table. But what he was saying is that, if he was studying another course or decided not to take an NHS bursary for the fees, then he could access up to £10,700 per year to pay living costs. And the question he wanted me to ask was why there is such a difference in that regard and what is the Government doing to tackle that disincentive for someone to study a course in nursing, particularly in the context that there is a shortage in the workforce. So, I welcome the fact that there is review ongoing, but perhaps you could give us an idea of when there will be a change on the ground.

Jeremy Miles AC: Some changes have already been made. So, HEIW has already increased the allowance available to students with regard to placement accommodation and so on, and transport. So, some steps have already been taken. We've established a programme board for bursaries and incentives to ensure that we can renew the bursary to ensure that it does provide those incentives, as the Member said. They'll look at a range of factors, including those that he's mentioned today.

Mark Isherwood AC: I think the same constituent possibly contacted me, although I think they named us individually rather than collectively on this occasion. They explained that because their household income was just over the eligibility threshold for an income-assessed NHS bursary, their son wasn't eligible. He was already short £317 before taking into account food, laundry and travel expenses. They pointed out that their other son, who was not studying for a nursing course but a general alternative course, would be £3,000 a year better off on the funding he currently receives through the system currently in place. So, how would you address the constituent's closing question to, I think, both of us: what could be done to amend the inequitable treatment of nursing students who are starting their studies this term?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I refer Mark Isherwood to the answer I gave a moment ago, but I would say, both to him and to Llyr Gruffydd, that, if you would like to write to me about the particular constituent, I would be able to look into that in more detail—unless you have already; I certainly have had some correspondence on this. But I'd be very happy to look into that in more detail.

The Funding of Schools

Sioned Williams MS: 2. What consideration does the Welsh Government give to the impact of the cost-of-living crisis when funding schools in South Wales West? OQ58402

Jeremy Miles AC: The cost-of-living crisis is having, and will continue to have, a significant impact on all public services, including our schools. As the First Minister has made clear, only the UK Government has the financial firepower to tackle the crippling effects of rising energy and other costs.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. On a visit to schools in my region the head told me about her concern about heating and lighting in the classrooms; she was trying to switch off all of the switches in sight. And the Welsh Local Government Association has warned that budgets for schools across Wales face huge challenges as a result of inflation and the increase in energy prices. According to a National Association of Head Teachers review, 37 per cent of heads foresee that these costs will create a deficit in their budgets, and there won’t be an option other than to consider redundancies. That could be disastrous at a time when our children and young people need the best possible support as a result of the pandemic. NAHT Wales has also warned of the damaging impact if local authorities don’t provide the full funding for wage rises for teachers. The Welsh Government has announced that there won’t be additional funding to pay for this. So, will any additional financial support be available for schools to cope with all of these funding crises?

Jeremy Miles AC: In terms of workforce salaries, that funding has already been allocated according to the revenue support grant last year. That was the basis for their agreement. I agree with the comments made by Sioned Williams on the pressures on our schools because of the increase in the costs of heating and other costs related to inflation and so on. As the Member will know from what we were discussing in the Senedd yesterday, the Welsh Government’s budget buys £600 million less in services than it did in November of last year. So, we are calling on the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to make up that deficit, because that’s what everyone agreed was the need for public services in Wales at the end of last year. It's only the Westminster Government that has the financial firepower to make up that deficit.
Unfortunately, there are no simple solutions in this area. In terms of school budgets specifically—the Member mentioned the work of the WLGA in this regard—we do know, in light of the fact that we have continued to fund schools throughout the COVID period, although there’s been less provision in many different ways, that the reserves for schools in Wales have increased substantially over that period. So, we are supporting local authorities to work with schools to ensure that that source of funding is also taken into account as they look at the challenging situations faced by schools.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, we're only too aware of the pressures facing our schools, thanks to the crisis in the cost of living at the moment, and a recent survey by NASUWT found that teachers are providing money, food and clothing to help children and families with cost-of-living pressures. It also said that nearly seven in 10 teachers saw that more of their pupils were lacking in energy and in concentration as well. Given that this cost-of-living crisis is known to be impacting both teachers and pupils' welfare, Minister, what further support could be made available to teachers, pupils and families to help them through this difficult and challenging time?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I would welcome any support that the UK Government is prepared to provide in terms of additional funding to the Welsh Government to support public services and support families across Wales. I think the failure to be clear about that is a significant concern for public services right across Wales. We have, as the Member will know, a number of initiatives to support the very real cost-of-living crisis that families right across Wales are facing, such as the pupil development grant, PDG-Access, the free school meals programme that we were discussing yesterday in the Senedd, the school holiday enrichment programme and, indeed, many others.
This Government will always do everything we can to support families under pressure in Wales in very, very difficult circumstances, despite the pressures that the Member is aware that the Welsh Government's budget itself faces. What we need is a partner in Westminster prepared to step up to the plate as well.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I stood here back in 2021 when I first came to this Senedd, the last Senedd, and whilst on education committee, I came late to the review, but I listened to the evidence and believed the Government when they said they wanted to change relationships and sexuality education, which was desperately needed, for the better. I relayed my own experience of RSE, which, alongside many others', highlighted the real need for change in this area. It was strongly agreed by all that what was delivered needed be factual and, most importantly, age appropriate. I even spoke on the issue of RSE within weeks of my return and, back then, I said
'I was at first...sceptical and uncomfortable with the idea of my 10-year-old son being taught RSE at that sort of level. But having taken the evidence and listened to people throughout the committee process of scrutinising this, I am now comfortable with what my son would potentially be taught.'
Years down the line, it would appear my original concerns have now come to fruition. What we are seeing is children and young people that are being exposed to material that's not age-appropriate and is already having a negative impact and effect on our young people. Perhaps the RSE code is too flexible, Minister, too open to differing delivery and focus per school across Wales. Minister, you have the opportunity to streamline the guidance to protect and educate our children with fact and information that does, as it was originally intended to do, provide our children with the information that they need to navigate their way through confusing times and developing into an adult and all that goes with that. Do you not agree, Minister, that the guidance perhaps is too loose and, to date, is not ensuring that safe, fact-based information as promised to our young people to ensure fulfilling and safe relationships is, in fact, being delivered?

Jeremy Miles AC: It is very important that young people in Wales are given an education that enables them to navigate the world in which we live and understand the challenges that young people face, which certainly I didn't face when I was at their age, and that is the underlying purpose and effect of the relationships and sexuality education code and guidance. The Member will be very well aware that there is a public debate fomented by many who are keen to share misinformation in relation to the effect of the code and guidance, and I would have hoped that she might have been able to resist the temptation of lending weight to that misleading set of claims.
The code is very clear and, in the way that she said in her question, is very specific about the limitations and restrictions and requirements that apply to the teaching of RSE at different developmental stages. I would invite any Member or indeed any member of the public with an interest in this area to read the code itself, and not to believe some of the claims that are being made about it. It's an area of great sensitivity, and I find it just implausible—. The Member claims that this is already something that she is concerned about. We are two weeks into the introduction of the new curriculum. So, the material that is being talked about by some of the groups that are seeking to misrepresent the position simply is not the product of the Welsh education system, and I hope that she will find a way of distancing herself from those claims.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, I do not marry myself with those comments; I'm talking as a parent myself of a nearly teenager and from what I've heard up and down Wales. Like many parents up and down Wales, I feel tremendously let down so far from what I'm hearing is being delivered on the ground. What is happening, I fear, is having the opposite effect of was intended, and we all wanted the same thing. In fact, there's an adverse effect, seemingly an already damaging effect, on some children in reality, some seeing what is being taught as a joke because it's gone to extremes, ridiculous, and it has increased some bullying. This is what I'm hearing from children.
It's hugely disappointing that the fact-based, appropriate learning that was wanted and needed is not being delivered. Minister, will you commit to reviewing the RSE content that is being taught in Wales and give us an idea of how it's being delivered and what in fact is being delivered as we go through this term? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: The generic nature of the Member's allegations, the lack of specificity, the broad-brush approach that she's taking to this question are incredibly unhelpful. The curriculum has been taught for a matter of days, actually, in schools, so I would be interested in hearing from her either in the Chamber or separately of the specifics to which she is referring. I think it's incumbent on all of us to be cautious and careful about how we make allegations in this place.
I certainly will not commit to reviewing the code. This code is a code that this Senedd has endorsed, is being rolled out in schools in Wales, is being done so by teachers who are committed to the well-being and welfare of the young people they are teaching, and I stand with them in making sure that those young people have access to a full curriculum designed to keep them safe and healthy.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, I completely agree with you; we do need it to keep children safe and healthy. What is clear is that Stonewall, a once admired and groundbreaking group, clearly has had a stranglehold on advising this Government, which in itself raises concerns when they deem children as young as three to be able to determine themselves as trans. Many groups have raised concerns that children and young people in Wales are being exposed to ideas far beyond their age range at such impressionable ages in their journeys to becoming adults. These were my main concerns originally, but I trust this Government to use this opportunity to expand RSE delivery for good. Maybe we need to revisit giving parents the opt-out if they continue to be concerned over the rest of this term.
And what a let-down it is from the goodwill of the last Senedd and collective want to ensure that it was delivered in a way that it is not confusing for our young people and was appropriate. I feel let down, and I want you to reassure people today, Minister, that if parents want to see what is being taught to their children in each school, that they'll be able to have access to those materials used in classrooms, to allay their fears or to see what is actually going on. And, Minister, if they're not satisfied with that content that their child is receiving, would you let them opt out?

Jeremy Miles AC: General assertions by the Member doesn't create a new reality on the ground. She asserts that there is confusion; she asserts many things in her contribution today. Let's just look at the evidence in reality here.
The Member is aware that the code already requires schools to engage with parents in relation to the content of the RSE curriculum, and schools are doing that. It's absolutely core to the requirement of the code and guidance that that should happen, as actually is consistent with our approach to the curriculum in general. Schools are on a journey to introducing better informed, age-appropriate RSE across our school system. I want to support them in doing that. They have the benefit of the code, they have the guidance, and they have an increasing amount of resource that enables them and supports them to do that. All schools know that they need to, and do, engage with parents in relation to this issue. That is the best way of making sure that our young people get the education that they need.

Questions now from Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister. I'd like to focus on relationships and sexuality education, but from a completely different angle. I'd like to welcome the written statement that you published over the summer regarding misleading allegations with regard to relationships and sexuality education, and it's a cause of regret that the opposition spokesperson has walked out without us having this discussion now.
I know that you have asked the group spreading these misleading allegations to cease sharing this misinformation, and I agree with what you said about this group's aggressive tactics. It frightens me, particularly having seen what happened in Gwynedd, targeted at the member of the cabinet, Beca Brown. Despite this, as you will know, this group is continuing its campaign, with a series of meetings arranged across Wales over the coming weeks.
I know that steps have already been taken by the Government, but what other steps will the Government be taking to ensure the safety of councillors, local authority staff and teachers, as this element of the new curriculum is rolled out?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member makes an important point in the last question. We are working with our partners generally to ensure that accurate information is available and that guidance is available to tackle this. It's very important—and it is a shame that the Conservative spokesperson isn't here to listen to this—it's very important that the public debate in this policy area is undertaken in a responsible manner, based on facts rather than allegations.

Heledd Fychan AS: I agree with you entirely, Minister, and thank you for that response. It's clear that the group is targeting parents with its campaign of misinformation, and even Members of the Senedd it would appear. I note that the Government has formulated guidance to the curriculum for parents and carers, an excellent document in my view, and one that explains the changes effectively. However, from speaking to a number of parents and carers, I note that very few of them have seen this important resource.
How therefore will you ensure that every parent and carer receives a copy of these leaflets, and how will you support schools in explaining the changes, in case they too are threatened by those who are campaigning against these changes? We must ensure that every child benefits from these changes, but I'm afraid that there will be a reluctance and fear in terms of introducing this subject if this campaign continues.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, that's the risk, as the Member set out. That's why it is so important that the debate happens in a factual and measured manner, because there are a number of challenges facing teachers at the moment. We have introduced a new curriculum and we need to ensure that they do get the support that they need in order to do that in a way that can be successful in this area and in all other areas.
We are working with the local authorities and with the consortia to look at what we can do to further support parents in this area. To date, we have ensured that there is a specific playlist available on Hwb, which includes a range of resources in 12 languages in order to ensure that local authorities and schools are supported and to facilitate the work that they're already undertaking to work with parents and the wider community to ensure that everyone understands what's happening on the ground in reality, rather than what's being claimed.

Pupils from Different Socioeconomic Backgrounds

Delyth Jewell AC: 3. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the attainment gap between school pupils from different socioeconomic backgrounds? OQ58412

Jeremy Miles AC: My oral statement on 22 March set out my intention to tackle the impact of poverty on attainment, and I have put in place a range of measures to realise this ambition.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. You'll be aware of the recent report of the Education Policy Institute, stating that no progress has been made in trying to close the gap between pupils from different social backgrounds over the past decade. According to the report, the poorest pupils are two years behind their contemporaries from more affluent backgrounds, on average. I know that you are concerned about this, Minister; you've made that clear. But, can you give us an explanation as to what has gone wrong as well as detailing your plans to tackle this problem, on top of what you've already said? I understand the challenges caused by austerity, but this doesn't explain why the situation is worse in Wales than it is in England. Could you also tell us what your analysis is of what is at the heart of this problem? Is it the fact that schools in poorer areas don't have the same resources and funding, or are there challenges in attracting teachers, perhaps, to some of these areas? How will you be targeting resources and funding to support pupils facing such disadvantage? And finally, Minister, how much will you prioritise trying to teach those who need more support in smaller groups, please? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, there are a number of important questions posed by the Member. The report does recognise that socioeconomic background in Wales is different to that, generally speaking, in England—that poverty levels are higher in Wales for reasons that are partly historical. The powers in terms of taxation and expenditure aren't in our hands to tackle those core elements. We use our resources to mitigate their impacts as much as we can, but there are challenges in that regard. The report does show us some important things, but it agrees with our own analysis of what needs to be done.
In the statement in March, and then in the speech I gave to the Bevan Foundation, a programme—I would say a broad-ranging programme—of measures was being considered, and we're implementing those. So, some of those things relate to how we support the education workforce to use alternative strategies, in terms of teacher training, in terms of ensuring peer-to-peer support for school leaders and in supporting schools in recruiting the teachers needed in those more disadvantaged areas. So, there's a range of things happening in that area.
Then, in terms of supporting pupils and students directly, there are plans in place in terms of speech and literacy, including a mentoring scheme with a university to ensure that speech and literacy levels are improved. This perhaps gets to the core of the question that you asked at the end of your contribution, in that we're also looking at what's already happening on the ground in terms of setting. That is, when in the school pathway should we be setting pupils, and is there a case to look again at that? Changing that system will be challenging, by the way. But, certainly, we do need to look at that.
In terms of the question in relation to funding—I've listed some of the plans that we have in place already today—we have a lot of schemes that are targeted at schools based on the number of pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds. So, that's at the heart of what we're doing. And the EPI has said, for example, that much of what we did in light of COVID had been weighted specifically towards children and young people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, a report for the UK Department for Education in 2015 found that the most successful schools are supporting the attainment of disadvantaged pupils, treating each pupil as an individual with specific challenges and needs. The less successful schools tended to view their disadvantaged pupils as a group whose home environment and lack of access to opportunities limited their chances of success. The most successful schools put effective systems in place to identify needs, select strategies, monitor progress and respond quickly, whilst providing pupils with extensive emotional support alongside supporting their academic progress. Minister, do you agree that this individual targeted approach is best suited to reducing the attainment gap between pupils from different socioeconomic backgrounds here in Wales? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I think that's part of the answer. Actually, I strongly believe that the new curriculum that we're introducing in Wales, which has at its heart, really, a curriculum tailored to the needs of individual learners and putting each learner in the best possible position to fulfil their own potential, will be a huge step forward for us. We will all speak to schools in our constituencies and regions. My own experience is that where schools have high levels of disadvantage, they're very excited about the opportunity that the curriculum brings, because they can see there's a means of perhaps re-engaging some of those young people who've found it most of a challenge. So, I think, that is very important.
I finished my answer to Delyth Jewell by referencing the work we did in terms of COVID, and I think we will discover—we're already discovering—that the impact of that obviously has not been equally felt, and there's a very significant impact on those who are most disadvantaged, and so the support we've provided has very much been about making sure that the individual learner's needs are met and reflected. So, it hasn't been about a generic catch-up programme; it's been about remotivating, rebuilding confidence, re-engaging at that individual tailored level.

The 2022 Exam Results

Altaf Hussain AS: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the 2022 exam results in South Wales West? OQ58377

Jeremy Miles AC: Qualifications Wales have sought to deliver grade outcomes for approved A-levels and GCSEs that are broadly midway between summer 2019 and summer 2021, at a national level. And the results that were achieved by learners demonstrate their resilience, and I congratulate them all on their achievements.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, after such a troubling time, with the effect of the pandemic clearly impacting the lives of our young people, it is right that we celebrate the achievements of all our young people who have shown such fortitude in completing their studies. Many will have struggled because of absence, and some have questioned the fairness of the results. What lessons can we learn from the experience of this cohort of students as we plan for next year and beyond? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I will take up the invitation to repeat my congratulations to young people in Wales, who have been through a very, very difficult period. I think, in some ways, this last year was the most disruptive in terms of the experience in the classroom, and so returning to an exam series in that context, I think, was a particularly challenging task. But I think the results have demonstrated the tenacity of our young people, their commitment to their own learning, and the incredible work that teachers and the wider education workforce have done in order to support our young people. We are looking at next year already, obviously. People studying exams next year will have experienced disruption in this year, so there will be some lessons to be learnt from the experience of the last year, of course, in that context.
Qualifications Wales have already said that the particular course adaptations that had to be implemented this year will not be in place for next year. However, there will be advanced notification of examined areas for young people to focus their revision in that way, so that is one aspect that will be developed from this year. And Qualifications Wales is currently working with other exam regulators in other parts of the UK to look at grading for next year and grade boundaries for next year. That work is currently under way.
Many of us will have spoken to learners on the results days for GCSEs and A-levels. My own experience of that was that the revision support and the online support that young people were able to draw on leading up to exams was appreciated, and we will certainly be looking to carry that over into the next year as well. We obviously hope that the year ahead is not like the last year, but certainly learners will have had the experience of this year, taking that forward into next year's exams, so they will need that additional support from us as well.

Support for Schools

Heledd Fychan AS: 5. What support is the Welsh Government providing to schools in light of the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58411

Jeremy Miles AC: The cost-of-living crisis is having, and will continue to have, significant impact on all public services, including our schools. The First Minister has already made clear in the Senedd yesterday that only the UK Government has the financial firepower to tackle the crippling effects of rising energy costs and other costs.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. Certainly, as the First Minister emphasised, there is a role for this Government and there are other things that we could be doing. The First Minister mentioned yesterday the campaign in terms of ensuring that people do take up every benefit currently available, including those that are under the control of the Welsh Government. In Scotland, they have advisers in specific schools to support parents to ensure that they do receive every benefit available to them. Is that something that you are considering introducing here in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: It's already happening in some schools in Wales. Schools support families in all sorts of different ways to ensure that they can access support more broadly. One of the considerations mentioned by the First Minister yesterday was the need to ensure that any contact between families and any public body allows people to understand the range of support available to them. One of the things, and perhaps the Member is aware of this, that we considered in the context of free school meals was how to remind families that, although they already access free school meals, if they are already eligible to receive certain support, that they know that and that they can inform the school of that so that the school can ensure they have access to that broader range of support that is already available. And there's also more to be done in terms of communication and ensuring that we as a Government also provide information to schools to support families in need.

Joel James MS: Minister, undoubtedly the cost of supplying energy to school buildings with the recent increases in wholesale energy prices is going to put enormous strain on finances, which, as we know, are already under considerable pressure. It is therefore a real concern that headteachers will have to make staffing cuts in order to balance budgets, as highlighted earlier by other Members. Whilst we all agree that the situation that schools find themselves in is far from ideal, I believe that the current situation gives cause to invest more vigorously in the energy efficiency of school buildings. I wonder therefore what plans you have to upgrade the energy efficiency of school buildings across Wales, and, given that many of them have highly suitable roof surfaces and sufficient ground space to support renewable energy generation, whether this Government is going to provide investment to enable schools in Wales to install solar panels or suitable wind turbines. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, that is a longer term solution to the challenge that the Member correctly describes as being imminent for schools, and I hope, as I'm sure he will, that when the statement is made on Friday, the Prime Minister will be clear in terms of the commitment that she's making to businesses and to individuals about the support for energy costs, which is certainly necessary in order for public services right across the UK not to feel the incredible pressure that otherwise they would.
On the broader point that the Member was making, in a number of ways he will know that we have a programme to ensure that the school estate, like every other part of the public estate in Wales, makes its contribution to reaching the goals, the ambitious targets that we've set for making Wales a net-zero nation. So, for new school builds, as he will know, from 1 January this year, any school seeking funding from the Welsh Government will need to be a net-zero school. But there are many schools, obviously, that are much older than that and there is a significant amount of the school estate that requires investment in order for them to be able to make that contribution as well, and there's work under way to understand the scale of that with our local authority partners and then to look at how that can be mapped out into the future.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, there's been significant interest in the reported consultation on school uniforms, and the First Minister spoke about this yesterday. The Welsh Government, of course, has extended the pupil development grant to support more families with the cost of uniforms and school kit to the extent of £200, but the Children's Society have said that the average cost of school uniform is still over £300 per child per year, and that is completely unnecessary and unfair. It's three years since we brought in guidance to improve uniform affordability—two years, that is, before England—and the succession of Westminster Tory Governments have widened the inequality. Now we find that school uniform banks are springing up, alongside food banks, alongside proposed warmth banks, and yet the bankers can get their extended bonuses. Can you provide an update on what schools in my region are doing to ensure families claim all the support that is available to them, and on the timetable for that public consultation?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that supplementary question. She's right to say, of course, that the costs of school uniform are a considerable concern for many families. I wrote to schools over the summer recess, towards the end of the recess, to say to them that we will be looking again, as she says, at the guidance that's been in place for three years, effectively, at this point, but the scale of the issue is such that we need to look again at what more we can do. We know that the cost of uniform with school logos can be a real issue for families, so I will want to look at whether that is absolutely necessary and whether schools should be required to provide iron-on logos free of charge, so that the merits of the school uniform can be maintained without the costs being borne by those who are struggling most.
The PDG access grant that we run in Wales is the most generous of any part of the UK. It is actually worth up to £300 for pupils in year 7, which is a year where the costs are particularly challenging, but for other years it's £225, and this year it's been increased to that level. And that is one of a range of ways in which we support families, but the pressures that families are feeling due to costs are very, very real, and there are many families who don't qualify for free school meals who are also finding it challenging, obviously, which is why tackling some of those questions, like the cost of uniforms, is so important.

Help for Students

Darren Millar AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to help students with cost-of-living challenges? OQ58394

Jeremy Miles AC: Our priority continues to be ensuring that higher education students have access to support that enables them to meet their day-to-day living costs. Our student support system provides support equivalent to the national living wage, with the highest levels of grant being targeted to those students most in need.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. I'm sure you'll be as concerned as I am at the significant increase in inflation in the past few months and, of course, it's forecast to rise even further in the months ahead. The student finance regime hasn't changed to take account of those rising costs that many students are facing, particularly in terms of any increase in the level of grant that the Welsh Government makes available on an universal basis to all students—that has been frozen since the beginning of the introduction of the new student finance regime. And there's been no increase either in the maintenance grants that are available to students. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to actually looking at the levels of that universal grant and, indeed, the maintenance loans that are available to support students, given the situation that many will find themselves in over the next few months and years ahead?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, student support rates are in fact increased each year in line with our policy, and I'll be making statements about that in the coming weeks. We already have in Wales the most progressive student support system of any part of the UK, and I'm very proud of that, and we remain committed to that, which includes, as you will know, a mix of grant and additional support. For any student looking for an indication of the level of support available, we published a statement, I think either yesterday or this morning, which sets out the range of support that is available for higher education students across grants, loans and council tax reductions and so on. We will continue to look at what more we can do to support students. We've obviously made funding available in many different ways over the course of the last year to reflect some of these pressures, but I hope to be saying a little more about student support in the coming weeks.

The Best Learning Environment

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 7. What is the Government doing to create the best learning environment for children? OQ58399

Jeremy Miles AC: Ensuring the school estate is fit for purpose is vital to creating a positive learning environment. This is why, since 2014, we have invested £1.22 billion through the whole of the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, against a total programme spend with our stakeholders of £2.2 billion.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: This winter will be one of the most challenging in the history of devolution, because the cost-of-living crisis will have a brutal and merciless impact on almost everybody, but especially the most vulnerable, without significant state intervention. Education is one of the many places where this crisis will be felt. Some children not covered by our free school meals policy will be going hungry this winter. Have you given any thought to Plaid Cymru's calls to extend the universal free school meals programme as an emergency measure for secondary school children? And, further to your answer to Sioned Williams earlier—that there aren't going to be any further funds available to schools to combat the increased costs—where would you suggest that headteachers cut their budgets in order to keep the lights on?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member will know that it's the Government's hope as well that we can do more in the area of free school meals, but the extension that the Member refers to in his question is one where we would need to make the kinds of cuts in other parts of our budget that the Member invites me to specify that schools should make in theirs. So, the challenge is very, very significant.
As well as having the commitment and the compassion for making the difference, we also have to find the resources for doing that, and that's the challenge that I'm sure he recognises that the Government here faces, in the absence of a commitment from the UK Government to make good, effectively, the cut in the Welsh Government's purchasing power through the funding that we already have. As I said earlier, the level of support that is required for public services to deal with energy costs—and that includes our education system—is the kind of level of support that we need the UK Government to step forward and provide to all parts of the UK.

Question 8 [OQ58392] is withdrawn. Question 9, Carolyn Thomas.

Nature and Biodiversity

Carolyn Thomas AS: 9. How is the Welsh Government ensuring schools teach children about the importance of nature and biodiversity? OQ58396

Jeremy Miles AC: Learning on the environment is mandatory in the Curriculum for Wales. The statements of what matters for the humanities and the science and technology areas of learning and experience include explicit references to the environment, to ensure that learners engage with the importance of nature and biodiversity.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister. According to research by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, only one in five children has a connection to nature, and time spent playing outdoors has halved in just one generation. Exploring the natural environment is incredibly beneficial for young children, particularly for their sensory and emotional development. It's important that these experiences occur at primary school age, because if a child does not connect with nature before the age of 12, they are less likely to as an adult.
If we are to tackle the nature crisis we face, we also need to make sure that our future generation of leaders understand the importance of preserving our biodiversity for the ecosystems and careful balance of life. Minister, what funding does the Welsh Government have in place to support schools to connect children with nature? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, as a former young ornithologist myself, I pay close attention to what the RSPB tells us in terms of the connection of young people with nature. I'm sure that most of us will recognise, from our own experience, just how important and enjoyable that is at a young age. There are two principal programmes that we fund and continue to support in the space of environmental education in schools. Eco-Schools is one, and the Size of Wales is another. We can use both those programmes to go beyond the classroom, if you like, and for young people to be able to engage with their broader environment, but also to have a sense of agency in terms of how they relate themselves to nature and to biodiversity. Between them, those programmes are funded by around £0.5 million a year over the last three years. That enables schools to engage with those programmes at no cost. In my own experience—and I'm sure hers will be from her region as well—when you speak to schools, both of those programmes are very valued, and most heads and most teaching staff see a real opportunity with the new curriculum to be able to make a real step forward in how those programmes play a part in the broader curriculum in schools as well.

Rhianon Passmore is not here to ask question 10 [OQ58413].

The Effect of Inflation on Budgets

Mike Hedges AC: 11. What assessment has the Minister made of the effect of inflation on 2022-23 school budgets ? OQ58383

Jeremy Miles AC: The rise in inflation is having a significant impact on all public services and will affect school budgets. We know that school reserves are currently in a higher position, and we support local authorities in working with schools to manage their budgets in light of the current circumstances.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the Minister for that response. Can I correct something that's been said earlier? School budgets are not the responsibility of the headteacher; they're the responsibility of the governing body in law. That's an important point to remember.
Yes, maybe the average amount of money in school governing bodies is relatively high, but that doesn't mean that some schools aren't running with very little money in reserves, and some school reserves are more down to good luck and things that have happened than anything else. I mean, these budgets were set at a very different time than we're in now. We've got teachers' pay and energy costs—I don't know what the teachers' pay increase is going to be, but I would guess it's going to be a lot higher than school governors set it back in March and April when things were in an entirely different situation. How does the Minister think schools are going to be able to meet those additional costs, and what additional support is going to be given either by local authorities or by the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles AC: Just on the question of reserves specifically, I do take the Member's point that there is obviously a variable picture in different schools, and if you don't have the reserves, then this isn't applicable to that school. But the overall picture across the system in Wales is that, from the last data available, which is now coming up to a year old, school reserves have increased from £31 million in March 2020 to £180 million in March 2021. So, that's the overall picture across the system, and local authorities where that is the case will be working with schools to manage those increased reserves in a way that supports the needs of those schools.
As the Member will know, the local government settlement for this year increased by over 9 per cent. That will obviously be very significantly affected by the costs of inflation. There are obviously discussions with local authorities to understand where those pressures are, but as the Member will have heard me say in previous answers, there is a very real limitation on what the Welsh Government can do in the absence of the UK Government making good for the £600 million by which our budget has less purchasing power today than it did at the end of last year.

Thank you, Minister.

Just a couple of points from me at the end of those two question sessions. My expectation is that Members are here to ask their oral questions, if they've tabled questions, unless they have been formally withdrawn. My other expectation is that Members are here, and remain here, for the length of any ministerial question session they wish to be called in. Not all Members have met that expectation today either, and there are numerous guilty parties. Most of them are not in the Chamber to hear me say this at this point, but I'm hoping that their colleagues in almost every political party will pass the message on. I won't be as lenient next week.

4. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Item 3 and item 4 have been postponed.

5. Topical Questions

The first topical question is to be asked by Hefin David and is to be answered by the Minister for Economy.

Bearmach Ltd

Hefin David AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the recent news that Bearmach Ltd at Pantglas Industrial Estate, Bedwas, has gone into administration? TQ659

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We understand that Bearmach Ltd has gone into administration. Working Wales advisers have provided onsite support to Bearmach employees over a three-week period, and we will continue to work with staff affected, providing advice and support. It's my understanding that up to 89 people will be affected by this company closure and are facing redundancy.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Hefin David AC: That's a helpful initial answer. I was informed on Monday 12 September by Caerphilly council about Bearmach. They've manufactured and supplied spare parts for older Land Rover vehicles, based, as I said, at Pantglas industrial estate. The council had been informed by the Welsh Government late the previous Friday, and I understand the company have received Welsh Government grant support in the past. Has Careers Wales been involved with the company? The local authority said it will be in contact with them to help from an employability perspective, so I'd like to know that. Unfortunately, the exact numbers of those being made redundant wasn't confirmed. The Minister did confirm it in his answer; it was reported to us as 51, but now he's confirmed it's 89. This is obviously very disappointing news for the local economy in Bedwas and the surrounding area. I'd like to know what the Minister is planning to do to further support the economy in the area around Pantglas and Bedwas particularly. Can the Minister give us a further assessment of the impact of Bearmach's closure on the workforce of the local community, including his understanding of the role of Careers Wales? And can he please clarify what further support will be made available to former employees from the Welsh Government, in addition to that that he's already mentioned?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I'll try and deal with each of those points. Our understanding is that 89 people were employed on the site, and given that it's our understanding that they've gone into administration and it's likely that there will be a site closure, they're all at risk of redundancy. My understanding is that a limited number of employees have been retained for a period of weeks to help support the closure of the business and remove stock onsite. For those who are not aware, Bearmach is an independent supplier of parts and accessories for Land Rover vehicles, and of course, there are still many of those in existence.
Working Wales is part of the Careers Wales service, so they've been onsite providing support to employees. We're also beginning to work with them—we understand there is some trade union membership there—to look at advice and guidance both by group and individual sessions. Some of the main levers of support that we can provide are through our ReAct Plus programme. That is available for people either affected by possible redundancy, or, in this case, a live redundancy situation. So, we're working with Jobcentre Plus and, indeed, Working Wales to provide tailored information, advice and guidance. It also provides a vocational training grant of up to £1,500 to help people whose jobs have been made redundant to potentially acquire new skills to allow them to re-enter the labour market, including alternative employment.
I should say, and I'll happily confirm this again, that if people want more information, they can contact Working Wales on 0800 0284844. So, if people haven't had direct contact, they can do on that number, and I'll send the number and those details across to the constituency Member as well. We also provide a range of other support in the area, including the business productivity enhancement programme. We're looking to enhance the competitiveness of small and medium-sized enterprises in the local area as well, so that there are, we hope, alternative sources of employment.
Part of my concern is that whilst the labour market is currently very tight, if the forecasts from a range of economists from the Bank of England are right, we could face a number of similar situations facing the economy in the coming weeks and months. But, I'd be more than happy to talk to the Member even after this question, because I think this will be a moving picture.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Bearmach has been a good local employer for many years in the Bedwas and Trethomas area. Apart from the 50 jobs that have been quoted as being affected, there will also be, as we've heard, lots of other agency staff employed at the site, who have now lost their income at the worst possible time. This will also be a blow to local businesses who worked in tandem with Bearmach, or benefited from workers spending their money in the local community. Can you let the Chamber know whether Bearmach approached you for any financial assistance and what support was subsequently offered? And has the closure of Bearmach, a once-successful company that has been unable to weather the tough economic conditions, prompted a rethink in the Government's prioritisation of the car industry as a driver of the Welsh economy?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there are two different questions there. Firstly, it's a point that is worth reflecting that agency workers, unless they've got acquired employment rights—. And there is a process; I remember doing this when I was an employment lawyer. If you've been there long enough, you can claim permanent status. Otherwise, they won't have redundancy protection and they won't be entitled to payments, because they won't have acquired employment rights and, indeed, the length of employment service.
When it then comes to the challenge more broadly over the automotive sector, we do still see the automotive sector as a significant part of the Welsh economy, moving forward. It's obviously vulnerable to some of the changes that are taking place, and in particular the changes in our trading relationships outside of the UK, in particular our trading relationships with Europe. That has made a number of parts of the sector more vulnerable. But it will be a period of change for the sector, and there are opportunities, moving forward, in new methods of propulsion with the significant strength we still maintain here as part of the economy, and, indeed, part of the broader manufacturing picture.
I'll be meeting members of the Welsh automotive sector next week at the Welsh Automotive Forum Autolink conference. I've met them on a number of occasions, looking at challenges that the sector faces. We weren't aware in advance of the fairly immediate site closure. I've met with my own officials, and there weren't early warning signals. There wasn't engagement with the company in the longer term or even the short term in advance; we were aware of the closure when it took place. So, my officials have offered to engage with the company, as, indeed, you'll see; there's been official engagement through my department with the Working Wales service. As there is more information, I'm happy to share it with Members who have an interest.

Thank you, Minister. The Deputy Minister for arts and sport will answer the second question. I call on Heledd Fychan.

Plas Menai National Outdoor Centre

Heledd Fychan AS: 2. What discussions has the Deputy Minister held with local stakeholders and union representatives on the protection of workers’ rights following the recent announcement regarding the outsourcing of services at Plas Menai National Outdoor Centre? TQ660

Dawn Bowden AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for that question. I have held discussions on workers' rights with officials of the recognised union at Plas Menai,with Sport Wales, and with Siân Gwenllian, the constituency Senedd Member for the local area. Yesterday's announcement by Sport Wales confirms that Parkwoodmust safeguard staff employment terms and conditions, and I'm reassured that Sport Wales has followed a thorough engagement process with the staff and the union.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Having been brought up on Anglesey, I'm very aware of the importance of Plas Menai as a resource and a local employer, and it was good to visit Plas Menai just a few months ago as a member of the culture and sport committee. During the visit, we expressed concerns about the possibility of outsourcing services, and I must say that none of those concerns have been alleviated today or yesterday. I have to say that I'm very surprised at the support of the Government for outsourcing by a body sponsored by the Welsh Government that also has responsibility under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. How does this change conform with those principles? Further, there was no reference yesterday in your statement to the Welsh language and the importance of Plas Menai in terms of good jobs for Welsh speakers in the area, and also in providing training and courses bilingually. What assurance can you give in terms of this element? There's no experience, from what I can see, from those who've been handed the contract of prioritising bilingual activities. Recognising that there are a number of further concerns, it would also be good to know what parameters were set out in your statement between Sport Wales and its new strategic partner.

Dawn Bowden AC: You'll be aware from the written statement I issued yesterday that Sport Wales announced the conclusion to its process to identify what they term as a strategic partner for the future management of Plas Menai in Gwynedd, and I think it's important to say that. We are talking about the management of the centre, we're talking about a specification there, a contract with Parkwood Leisure that is aimed at securing, safeguarding and expanding the future of Plas Menai. As you'll know, Plas Menai has had some difficulties over a number of years, and there have been a number of different options that have been presented to how we could safeguard and move that forward. Parkwood Leisure will bring vast experience, expertise and a track record in the area of outdoor activities in this partnership with Sport Wales, which does not currently exist at the site. So, we are looking at a partnership that will utilise and tap into the experience and expertise that we do have with a partner that will have the expertise that the centre does not have.
In terms of the specification and the contract, we have been very clear that the well-being of future generations Act has to be complied with, and that is written into the contract, as is a requirement for Parkwood Leisure to comply with the Sport Wales strategy and to be aligned with the Welsh Government's programme for government, along with the well-being of future generations Act. As you know, one of the seven ways of working includes the commitment and the development of the Welsh language. Parkwood Leisure have absolutely committed to all of that. In terms of the conditions of the employment for the people who work there, which was a primary consideration that I had, and I knowthat Sport Wales had, they have written into the contract a guarantee that terms and conditions for the employees at Plas Menai will be guaranteed, including their pension rights, for the entire period of the contract. They have also agreed within the terms of the contract that there will be no two-tier workforce, so that any new staff that are brought in after the commencement of the contract would also be employed on the existing terms and conditions that are currently enjoyed by the staff at Plas Menai.
I've had detailed discussions with the local, recognised unions at Sport Wales. It is a matter, of course, for Sport Wales, as an arm's-length body, to negotiate the fine detail of this and how it will affect their employees, but there is a recognition that this is the best way forward for the development and the future survival and growth, which is important, of Plas Menai. It is a contract that will seek to develop that centre into an all-year-round facility, which it currently isn't. And I'm satisfied that, with the monitoring processes that are going to be in place to monitor the performance of that contract, we will deliver, with ongoing capital investment from Welsh Government to develop the site, the management contract—because that's what it is; it will still be owned by Sport Wales and it's still owned by Welsh Government, so it's still a public sector facility.

Carolyn Thomas AS: When I visited Plas Menai with the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee with Heledd, I was struck by what a great facility it is, in a stunning setting, but also what further potential it could have to incorporate more activities as well. The offer did seem a little limited compared to other outdoor activity centres. I was concerned about the outsourcing of the facility to a private enterprise for profit, but hear that Parkwood Leisure will run it as a not-for-profit business; that staff will have their terms and conditions protected, as you've just said, which I understand was a concern of the unions and would be a concern of mine; that they would be complying to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, as you've just said, which gives regard to the Welsh language; and that they will continue to employ local people, hopefully creating more all-year-round jobs going forward.
I'm aware that many public services have had to move to different operating models during years of austerity, and Parkwood Leisure already have experience of managing some of these. Please could the Minister confirm this, and what success have they had with those? Thank you.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for that question? She's quite right that in these times of austerity and different approaches to how we can make businesses and facilities successful, we have to look at different models. And, if we were living in an ideal world, we probably wouldn't be looking at this type of model, but we're not, and so we are, because what we're looking to do is to ensure the future and the growth of that facility. You are quite right to say that this is not privatisation—the point I was trying to make to Heledd Fychan; Parkwood is a commissioned partner, and the assets remain within the ownership of Sport Wales. I talked about the ongoing capital investment that Sport Wales will continue to make into Plas Menai. The Parkwood contract would be via their charitable arm, Legacy Leisure, and that absolutely is a not-for-profit basis, and the contract is based on a not-for-profit basis.

Mike Hedges AC: First of all, can I say I chair the PCS cross-party group in the Senedd? Can I also say that I'm politically opposed to the outsourcing of services by the Welsh Government—absolutely, unequivocally opposed to it? Not-for-profit's a really interesting thing, because lots of places are not-for-profit; it's easy to get around it, of course, because you pay consultancy fees, you pay support fees, you pay the price that that company wants to charge for services, so, actually, the profit isn't made on the contract, it's made outside the contract. I'm sure that we have a situation where people's conditions will be protected from day 1, and I'm sure that also we will have an organisation saying, 'We need to make some changes to make us more efficient.' My experience of privatisation in any of its forms is that the workers pay the price by changes to their terms and conditions. If the current management and board are unable to run Plas Menai outdoor centre effectively, surely the most effective action would be to replace the board and senior management with people who can. Why does the Minister believe that that outsourcing will provide a better service, and why do you believe that the private sector can do it better than the public sector?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, first of all, thank you for that question, Mike. First of all, I don't think that the private sector can do things better than the public sector. What we are faced with and what we were dealing with was an organisation that has tried several different options to deliver success for Plas Menai, including bringing in their own managers, bringing in marketing staff, and bringing in other ways of working that have not delivered those changes. What they have not been able to do is to bring in the kind of expertise in the development of the facility within the cost envelope that they have. You're absolutely right that what Parkwood Leisure will do as part of the contract is that they will be paid a management fee for running the management of that service. So, the service is not being outsourced, but the management of it is. The service remains part of Sport Wales, and I can't reiterate that enough; it remains part of Sport Wales. It remains a public sector body and a public sector provision. But the profit that will come to the organisation would be through their management fee, which, incidentally, will be considerably less than the current running costs of Plas Menai—some 32 per cent less than the running costs of Plas Menai.
Now, if Parkwood are unable to make money on that basis, that is their problem. That is what they have contracted for. That is what they have said that they can run the management of that organisation on, and that they can develop that organisation based on that level of management fee. Also written into the contract, and I think it is an important point that you make, Mike—. I spent many years, as you well know, as a trade union official, and I know only too well what happens with Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations contracts and that TUPE contracts are only as valuable as the paper they're written on on day 1. However, the difference here is that this is not a normal TUPE contract whereby the new employer takes over on day 1 and can then issue notice to change the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions of employees in Plas Menai are guaranteed for the lifetime of the contract. Any changes to staffing that might be required in Plas Menai will not be the decision of Parkwood Leisure, they will be the decision of Sport Wales. So, it is quite clear that this is a very different type of arrangement. This is a commissioned partnership arrangement whereby nothing happens in that organisation without the agreement of Sport Wales as the partner, with the commissioned partner, Parkwood Leisure.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

6. 90-second Statements

Item 6 is the 90-second statements, and the first of those is from Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful for the opportunity to raise the fantastic work being done by Andy Airey, Mike Palmer and Tim Owen—better known as the 3 Dads Walking. The three fathers who each tragically lost their daughters due to taking their own lives are currently taking on their second challenge, which is a 500-mile trek to highlight suicide prevention and to raise money for the prevention charity, Papyrus. The 3 Dads Walking started their challenge at St Andrews House in Edinburgh on Saturday, 10 September, which was World Suicide Prevention Day, and they're arriving here at the Senedd on the evening of 1 October.
Suicide is the biggest killer, sadly, of people under the age of 35 in the UK, and every year, more than 200 schoolchildren sadly take their own lives. The 3 Dads Walking believe that, by raising awareness, we can all raise together the issues and prevent other families from being devastated in the same way. The dads are walking through each of the nations—Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England—in memory of their daughters, Beth, Sophie and Emily, and they're close to raising an outstanding £1 million for the Papyrus Prevention of Young Suicide charity. I wanted to raise this in the Senedd this afternoon as it's an important issue to highlight, and I wanted to highlight the amazing work of the three dads. Diolch. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: Today is World Alzheimer's Day. World Alzheimer's Day is a global opportunity to raise awareness, educate, encourage, support and demystify all types of dementia. Dementia is a complex condition and often people need specialist support to help them live their lives, keep them safe and protect their well-being. Research for Alzheimer's Society Cymru found that 45 per cent of people with a diagnosis in Wales felt that they hadn't received enough support in the past year. In Wales, there are around 50,000 people living with dementia, with this number estimated to rise to around 100,000 by 2050.
A diagnosis can be daunting, but it's better to know than not to know. Nine out of 10 people with dementia have said that they benefited from getting a diagnosis, allowing more time to plan for the future and unlock the door to treatment, care and support. So, my message this World Alzheimer's Day to everybody affected by dementia in the South Wales East region and across Wales is that you are not alone. If you are worried about your memory or the memory of your loved one, there is support out there for you from organisations such as Alzheimer's Society Cymru, who can support you in making the process of getting a dementia diagnosis as clear as possible. So, please do not suffer in silence. And I'd like to say to all of the Members here today in the Chamber and beyond the Chamber that those with Alzheimer's and dementia might forget us but we, together, must not forget them. Thank you.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'd like to pay tribute to the late Tony Paris, who sadly passed away last week. Tony was one of the Cardiff Three, who were wrongly convicted of the tragic and violent murder of Lynette White only a few minutes' walk from this Chamber. I remember as a young boy the protests in Cardiff for justice for the Cardiff Three. I also remember the persistent gossip about them. I also remember, as a young barrister, the former police officers, in open court, saying that they were still guilty of murder. And, despite receiving apologies from South Wales Police, that corruption trial against the former police officers fell because of missing evidence, which was later discovered a few days afterwards.
Injustice towards Tony Paris did not finish when he walked out of those prison gates.
South Wales Police has a poor history when it comes to miscarriages of justice, especially with regard to people from ethnic minorities. This month also marks 70 years of the wrongful hanging of Mahmood Mattan at Cardiff prison. We cannot forget these miscarriages of justice. That's why I support Cassie Parris, the daughter of Tony, who carries on with his fight for justice and who is starting a campaign to name a street in Tony's beloved Butetown after him. Tony Paris championed justice for all; Wales and the world will be a poorer place without him. Diolch yn fawr.

Delyth Jewell AC: It was with terrible sadness that Wales learned about the death of Eddie Butler. A gentle giant, Eddie captained Pontypool RFC, he captained the Wales team and played for the Barbarians and Lions, but it was as a commentator that Eddie became not only a household name but a familiar household presence on match days. In our triumphs and our disappointments, Eddie's melodious voice accompanied us, chronicling those moments when we as a nation held our collective breath. Eddie always found the words.As Gary Lineker has said, Eddie was a true Welsh poet who brought games alive with fervour and passion.
He was an ardent campaigner, lending his support and his might to organisations ranging from DEC Cymru to prostate cancer and Velindre. But, Wales's own story held a fascination for him. It was an immense privilege for me to share a platform with Eddie in the Merthyr independence rally in 2019. That day, Merthyr was full of enthusiasm and excitement, and Eddie crafted the words that channelled those emotions and gave voice to our hopes and very dreams. His voice will be missed, he will be missed. Eddie, the one and only, was truly irreplaceable. Nos da, Eddie, and we'll see you at the final whistle.

And finally, Elin Jones.

Elin Jones AC: The first female chat show host in the history of British television was a middle-aged woman from Briton Ferry, Mavis Nicholson, the daughter of a Port Talbot steelworks crane operator. Born in the 1930s, brought up in a small terraced house, she went on to study English at Swansea University under Kingsley Amis. She moved to London and was spotted by Thames Television in her early forties, and thus, in 1971, began her career in television. She co-hosted a weekly afternoon programme, Tea Break,along with Judith Chalmers, Mary Parkinson, Mary Berry.
In 1984 she joined the new Channel 4, hosting her daytime interview show, Mavis on 4. She was the master of the long-form interview. Actress Maureen Lipman said there was a Frost-Nixon moment in every one of her interviews. She interviewed so many of the big names—Elizabeth Taylor, Rudolf Nureyev, Kenneth Williams. But she was as inquisitive of the lives of the people sitting next to her on the train as she was of the Lauren Bacalls and David Bowies of this world.
She presented radio too. She hosted Start the Week and Woman’s Hour, and deputised for Jimmy Young on Radio 2.
She was awarded the Bafta Cymru Special Award for Outstanding Contribution to Television in 2018. And what a contribution that was. I wonder if today’s Loose Women or Emma Barnett know who smashed the glass ceiling for them. It was Mavis Nicholson in her Briton Ferry lilt.
Mavis moved back to Wales over 20 years ago and died on 8 September in Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant at the age of 91.

Thank you, everyone.

7. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report—Fuel poverty and the Warm Homes Programme

Item 7 this afternoon is the debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Fuel poverty and the Warm Homes Programme'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jenny Rathbone.

Motion NDM8072 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on Fuel poverty and the Warm Homes Programme, laid on 18 May 2022.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch yn fawr. This debate on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme I hope will be useful to all Members, as this is something that I know all our constituents are extremely worried about. The committee started this inquiry in the spring of this year, when energy prices were a third of what they are today. And Wales is particularly vulnerable to this unprecedented hike. Wales has some of the oldest housing stock in Europe. Inadequately insulated homes, concentrated mainly in the private sector, either owner-occupied or private rented, cost a disproportionate amount to heat and rely on carbon-emitting energy sources. The UK overall is bottom of the European league table for homes insulation. UK houses lose an average of 3 degrees Celsius of indoor heat after five hours, three times faster than in Germany. And even southern European countries like Italy and Spain, who don't experience our cold and prolonged winters, have homes that are, on average, twice as well insulated as UK homes. This is shocking indeed.
Over 20 years ago, the warm homes Act set out to improve the energy efficiency of Welsh homes and eliminate fuel poverty. A combination of flawed policy making, inadequate regulations and upheavals in world energy markets means that not only are we are a long way off achieving that aim, the situation is now acutely critical. As a result of the April price cap rise, the Welsh Government has estimated over 600,000 households, or 45 per cent of all households, are living or will be living in fuel poverty in Wales as soon as winter starts. Presumably—matters have got worse since then—that is now the fate of the majority of households in Wales. The most vulnerable are those who face the grim choice between eating or heating. As set out in this report, Government action on an unprecedented scale is urgently needed.
I would like to thank all the people who were involved in making this inquiry report, all the stakeholders and policy experts who gave formal evidence, the members of the public who spoke to us about their personal experiences of the issues we are covering in the report, and the committee clerks and research staff who supported our inquiry, as well as the auditor general and his team at Audit Wales for their meticulous audit of the Warm Homes programme, which was published in November last year.
Gas used to be considered an effective and relatively cheap way of heating our homes. That was until gas started being used to fire up power stations as an alternative to coal, and this, combined with the fallout from the war in Ukraine, have put rocket boosters under market prices. This turmoil has created such an unprecedented crisis for households this winter. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research says these rises will hit the poorest households in Wales harder than any other UK nation or region. And some households spend over a quarter—26 per cent—of their income on energy and food, both of which have experienced massive inflation. For these people, as the NIESR points out presciently, neither wage growth nor welfare benefits will compensate for this fast rise in inflation.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We're pleased as a committee that the Welsh Government has accepted the first three of our recommendations, which relate to the immediate action required to review the effectiveness of the winter fuel support scheme, to maximise the benefits of the VAT cut for energy-saving materials and insulation. Is the Welsh Government in a position to now share the outcome of its review of the winter fuel support scheme? We all need to know which local authorities and other stakeholders have the most effective strategy for maximising take-up as we face even more critical problems this winter.
The Welsh Government has invested an additional £4 million in the Fuel Bank Foundation, which provides people with pre-payment meter top-ups and a heat fund for the pre-purchase of heating oil for low-income households who are off the gas grid. That's very welcome, and it would be good to know whether the Government thinks that is going to be sufficient to meet the demand this winter.
There has already been a large number of public, private and voluntary organisations offering to set up warm hubs this winter so people aren't shivering at home. What role does the Welsh Government envisage, in partnership with the fuel poverty advisory panel and others, to ensure that these excellent initiatives will marshal the immediate resources required in the very poorest communities to prevent people literally freezing to death?
While the Warm Homes programme made a positive difference to some 67,000 households who received its support, its shortcomings ranged from the size and scale of the programme to restrictive eligibility criteria and a poorly designed grant cap, which stifled more holistic whole-house approaches. Nest and Arbed became, in essence, gas boiler replacement schemes, prioritising carbon-emitting heating systems over other interventions. The emphasis placed on replacing boilers without complementary works to insulate homes was described by one of our stakeholders as
'buying a teapot with cracks in it.'
The figures for 2020-21 show that nearly all the measures installed by Nest in that year were for central heating systems rather than insulation schemes, which means that they were continuing to build in carbon-emitting systems. Our report, alongside the auditor general's, sets out in black and white the lessons that must be learnt from the flaws of the current Warm Homes programme. Recommendation 6 from our report in particular encapsulates the need for the next programme to be bigger in scale, smarter in who it targets and greener in its interventions.
Now that the Senedd has resumed its normal business for this autumn term, we look forward to the launch of the next Warm Homes programme. Can the Minister highlight, either now or in writing to the committee, the ways in which our specific points regarding the successor programmes have or have not been addressed? Specifically, you say that
'the next iteration will be responsive to market and supply chain conditions, balancing demand with available capacity.'
Wise words, given the level of disruption Wales and the world are experiencing. In the long term, tackling fuel poverty and ensuring our energy security relies on effective decarbonisation across all homes, and that includes improved energy efficiency.
Wales has come a long way in generating over half the energy it currently consumes from renewable resources. The challenge for the Welsh Government is how that can translate into a fair, just, green transition in the context of the way the UK energy market is currently rigged to the most expensive cost of gas. Switchingto renewables is key and it's urgent.
You have accepted the committee's eighteenth recommendation for a clear, long-term strategy for decarbonisation to give industry the confidence to invest in skills, technology and people. We know that the net zero skills plan is needed now, so hopefully there will be no slippage on the projected December publication date.
The transition to net zero will need to look at Welsh housing stock of all ages and tenures. The greatest number of fuel-poor households are in the private rented sector and in rural areas, and specific steps are needed to address these. The challenges for tenants in the private rented sector are particularly acute. Not only have very few privately renting tenants benefited from the existing programme, research highlighted in our report found little correlation between the energy efficiency of a property and market rental rates. Both Welsh and UK Governments therefore need to address this through a combination of incentives for landlords, more rigorous standards and engagement across the board.
So, specifically in relation to recommendation 22, can the Minister indicate whether it plans to urge the UK Government to act on proposals to increase the minimum energy efficiency standards to energy performance certificate C for all rented properties by 2028? And if the UK Government is unwilling to act, would the Welsh Government go ahead with implementing these higher minimum energy efficiency standards in Wales only? I look forward to Members' comments and the Minister's response.

Altaf Hussain AS: I'm delighted to be contributing to this afternoon’s debate on our committee report on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme. I would like to thank our Chair, Jenny Rathbone, for steering us through a significant number of important issues, which, in this period of economic challenge, have become even more important for families the length and breadth of Wales. Fuel poverty, the risk to families’ health and well-being as we enter the coldest months of the year, with prices already much higher than a few months ago, is a threat that this Senedd and this Welsh Government need to respond to. Indeed, we are in a different place to when the committee started this work, with families facing the cost of fuel, increases in the costs at the supermarket till, the risk of a recession and the impact of fuel poverty, which will, this year, hit more households than we have previously seen.
I would like to focus on the response of the Minister to the committee's recommendations. Our report is clear in the conclusions we have reached, based on the wealth of evidence that we considered, and there is a sense of purpose in what we recommended. And as we published our report in May, four months ago, I am hoping that the Minister has now made significant progress in advancing our recommended actions, with changes in the weather heading towards us.
I would like assurance on the delivery of our recommendations, and in particular on these following areas: firstly, we called for a review of the support offered to low-income households via the winter fuel support scheme before autumn 2022, assessing take-up rates by local authority area, assessing the effectiveness of the promotion and awareness raising, and considering whether further outreach work to proactively support harder to reach and vulnerable groups is needed. The Minister’s response said a review was happening. Has this now been concluded and, if not, when? Can the Minister assure me that the review is as comprehensive as the committee has called for, to fully understand the effectiveness of support to low-income households and to think through the enormity of the challenges that many more households are now facing?
Secondly, I am concerned that the Minister’s acceptance of some of our recommendations is not reflected in the accompanying narrative. For example, in our fifth recommendation, where we call for smarter, less restrictive eligibility criteria to ensure, as a minimum, that any household that meets the definition of fuel poverty is able to access support when needed in the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme, the Welsh Government says it
'will consider the Committee’s recommendation when designing the detail of the eligibility criteria to ensure the points raised are addressed.'
My reading of this does not commit the Government to doing exactly as the committee recommended, despite accepting the recommendation. Can the Minister confirm this afternoon that the new programme will be smarter and less restrictive?
These are key considerations, and I am sure that Members will want to know that lessons are being learnt, which I would urge the Government to publish as soon as possible. The challenge of a programme that is smarter in who it targets was also raised by Audit Wales in their report, stating that the Government should set out how it intends to ensure that the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme is bigger in scale, smarter in who it targets and greener in its interventions. I agree with the auditor general.
On this recommendation, 6, I’m afraid the narrative again doesn’t match the acceptance of the recommendation. We are again told just to wait for the Minister to set out the scope and purpose of this new programme. Does the Minister accept the view of Audit Wales that the new programme should be bigger in scale, smarter and greener? If so, will that be made clear this afternoon, to give confidence to Members that significant progress is being made, along with the details we should now expect to see?
Thirdly and finally, I want to touch on another area in our report that is of critical importance.

You need to conclude now, please.

Altaf Hussain AS: Whilst I have some concerns about the speed of ministerial responses, at a time of unprecedented and immediate challenge, there are several areas in our report that are around the longer term. One of our recommendations, No. 11, asks that a future area-based scheme develops a community engagement strategy to ensure that the benefits of existing networks are maximised—

The Member needs to conclude now, please.

Altaf Hussain AS: —and that local communities feel a much stronger sense of buy-in. This is important. Wales is a small country; we have substantial capacity in our network of local authorities, housing providers, community and third-sector groups who have reached an ability to engage directly with communities to help get that buy-in. There is a reason why this is vital.
I would like to hear from the Minister about it. Thank you.

Sioned Williams MS: This inquiry and report on the Warm Homes programme and fuel poverty is perhaps one of the most important that I've been part of as a member of a committee in the Senedd to date, because every winter, hundreds of thousands of people in Wales have difficulty in affording to heat their homes, living in damp, cold conditions that are dangerous for their health. That was the situation last winter, and the winter before that, and the winter before that, before the war in Ukraine started, before the height of the current energy crisis. A crisis already existed that made the scrutiny and detailed analysis by the committee, to ensure that the next version of the programme benefits from learning key lessons and does what needs to done, urgent work and vital work, vital in terms of our need as a nation to respond to the climate crisis and our vital efforts to cut carbon emissions, and in terms of our duty to eradicate the completely unacceptable levels of fuel poverty that, as the Chair said, have reached 45 per cent, and probably higher.
And if that wasn't enough of an incentive to drive us forward, we started to inquire as a result of the egregious and expensive failures of the Warm Homes programme as noted by the Audit Wales report. The deficiencies noted were fundamental and shocking, considering the importance of the programme and the size of the public expenditure on it, and the recommendation of the committee that the new version should include a monitoring and evaluation framework and robust management is vital. The most important thing to note, perhaps, is that the funding for the programme was totally insufficient. Evidence from the future generations commissioner was striking in that regard, and underlined the failure of the programme to date in terms of its ambition and its impact and the urgent need for action on this.
The price of further delay before investing and taking action on the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme is far higher now in terms of fuel poverty of course, as a result of the current energy crisis. Plaid Cymru supports the recommendation of the committee and is pleased to see the Government response, which does accept every recommendation. But a number of the responses to the recommendations suggest that an update would be provided to the Senedd about the next iteration of the programme by the beginning of this new term, and in the light of the crisis that faces us, that threatens the health and, indeed, the lives of families, we need a clear timetable and a clear policy commitment to an ambitious and comprehensive programme to tackle the cost-of-living crisis and the climate crisis, that will achieve our aims effectively, in accordance with the findings of the report. When will we hear that, Minister? I'd like to have a clear timeline in your response to this debate.
And whilst we're waiting for action and implementation of the new iteration, Plaid Cymru supports the view of NEA Cymru that changes should be made and new investment should be made now within the current Nest programme, to make it more effective and to deepen its impact. The Government should maximise the benefits of the current scheme by giving it a financial boost and adapting it to include fabric and insulation measures alongside new heating systems. The fabric and worst-first approach to retrofitting, targeting the poorest households in the least energy-efficient homes, needs to be at the heart of the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme. This would decrease the demand for energy and would achieve the double aim of decreasing fuel poverty by decreasing energy use and, therefore, carbon emissions.
Plaid Cymru has also called on the Tory Government at Westminster to tax the grotesque profits of the gas and oil companies to help to fund a programme to improve the housing stock in Wales, which is amongst the least energy efficient in the UK.
One thing that is clear is that we need to take radical action on a scale that we've never seen to date. We like to use that term, 'radical', perhaps we use it too often. This programme does demand the true meaning of the word 'radical'. This report does show a way forward that is free of the complexities and the failures of the previous programme. The Government has accepted the map that has been proposed. What we and what thousands of residents in Wales need to hear is when the next step on the journey will be taken.

Jane Dodds AS: When we were all starting out on this inquiry, we didn't know that this would be the most important issue for us all, and, to be honest, I'm a little saddened that there aren't more people here in the Chamber, because this is the most important issue that we're all facing and all the people that we represent are facing. I'd like to start by, first of all, thanking the individuals and organisations who participated in this inquiry, and the Minister too, and also our Chair and my fellow Members.
It is important that this report is set in its context, given what we are facing now, and, as I said, this is the single most important issue. In our hearts and in our heads we should all be thinking, 'We have to focus on this for the sake of the people that we all represent.'
Forty-five per cent of households in Wales are likely to be in fuel poverty this year. The Bank of England has predicted that inflation will hit around 13 per cent by the end of the year. Some 70 per cent of people living in fuel poverty don't receive any benefits and much of the support available isn't relevant to them, therefore. And prior to the pandemic and the current cost-of-living crisis, a third of children in Wales were facing poverty.
I want to focus on one of the elements that we looked at, and I know that this has already been referred to this afternoon, and that is the Government's Warm Homes programme, and Arbed and Nest.

Jane Dodds AS: The committee's report and the auditor general's report set out a number of issues and concerns: poor contract and programme management; issues in reaching rural communities and private renters; lack of clarity around the criteria and objectives; and the sheer pace and scale needed. We heard in the evidence to the committee that whilst the programme has helped many people across Wales, it really did lack the impact, the reach and the effectiveness needed to really move the dial for the right people, in the right way, on fuel poverty and decarbonisation. Almost half of those who received support through the programme last year were deemed to not be in fuel poverty, and that figure was more than 60 per cent in the previous year.
Just touching on those in rural communities that I, and I know others here, represent, they face particular challenges in dealing often with very old properties that are difficult to retrofit and to insulate, and those in rented accommodation have very little recourse to address these issues and, as we know, can, in some circumstances, face difficulties and are reprimanded in doing so. It would therefore be helpful to hear from the Minister what steps are being taken, or options explored, to ensure that rural communities and private renters are not left behind in the next phase of the programme.
In addition, then, to looking at what needs to happen next, I hope the Government will be committing to an investigation to address the apparent failure to properly manage public money. The issues around transferring funds from one element of the programme to the other raise questions. A quick analysis of the annual statements of the programme show that the number of households receiving support under the scheme declined from 5,500 to 4,500 in 2020-21, and at the 2016-17 rate, it would take a 111 years to insulate every household, and at the 2021 rate, 135 years. So, there are a huge number of questions here to look at in relation to the scale and level of investment, and also how the programme, going forward, can reach those rural communities and our private renters.
I do believe that it is important to focus now on learning those lessons and moving forward, but the fact remains that the statutory target to eradicate fuel poverty by 2018 was widely missed. Four-hundred million pounds has been spent on a project that has fallen short of its objectives, and we face, as I said at the beginning, an energy crisis that could have partly shielded people in Wales had the Warm Homes programme done its job. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sarah Murphy AS: I want to start by also thanking my colleagues, the Chair and the clerks on the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their work on this vital and timely 'Fuel poverty and the Warm Homes Programme' report, as well as those who gave evidence and spoke before the committee. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has responded by either accepting or accepting in principle the recommendations of the report. We know that the cost-of-living crisis is impacting so many across our communities. This report has been critical in identifying the gaps in support, and understanding how the Welsh Government can help to ensure that no home is left behind. And as we start this term, I look forward to hearing how the Welsh Government sets out the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme, and we'll welcome plans to make the eligibility criteria, in particular for support, less restrictive, as set out in recommendation 5.
There are many people in our communities who desperately need this support, but have been unable to access it. For example, Marie Curie highlights that recommendation 5 is an opportunity to support those who are terminally ill, have cancer, or neurological conditions, and are now facing fuel poverty because of the ongoing crisis. Dying people in Wales, as well as those suffering chronic illness, spend a lot more time and a lot more money on heating their homes sufficiently, and, as Marie Curie found, are terrified about the cost of heating their homes going forward. We must ensure these people in our communities are eligible for and are effectively signposted to appropriate support.
I am also pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendation 3, to work with the fuel poverty advisory panel to identify immediate to short-term solutions to support families already in fuel poverty. It's heartbreaking that some of the most popular videos on social media at the moment are people suggesting turning off all the radiators in your home and relying on an electric blanket to get you through the next few months. The anxiety and stress about covering increasing fuel costs is escalating across our communities, and if we thought that there was a chance that UK Government would do the right thing and put the public first, then we were very wrong. As Martin Lewis from the Money Saving Expert said, households will face a typical energy bill rising to £3,500 a year from this autumn, and the current planned support from the UK Government is woefully inadequate.
The UK Government has adopted the UK Labour policy to have a price cap. However, the UK Government has rejected calls to implement a windfall tax on the companies that continue to pocket immense profits from the crisis. It's estimated that it will cost £150 billion between now and 2024, which will come from borrowing. So, we will have to pay it back somehow, essentially kicking the can, and the cost to the public, down the road.
But also, the cap will be £2,500, with everyone receiving £400 over the next six months. By my calculations, that is still at least £600 short of the estimated £3,500. Where is the UK Government expecting this to come from? Residents in my own constituency in Bridgend and Porthcawl are telling me that, with food, fuel and energy prices increasing whilst many wages stagnate, this will be impossible for them to cover.
Fortunately, once again, our Welsh Government will do what the UK Government will not, and will protect the many and the most vulnerable. We see that in several recommendations and responses by the Welsh Government in its response to our report—that focus on collaboration and partnership between local authorities, including making sure that people have access to the Wales fuel support scheme, where residents can claim a one-off payment of £200 through their local authority to ensure that they can pay their fuel bill, as well as fuel vouchers and a heat fund for people on prepayment meters facing hardship.
We also heard yesterday from our First Minister that £1 million will be made available for community centres, sports clubs and other groups to provide warm banks to help towards their fuel costs, as they provide warm and welcoming spaces for people to continue to congregate. It is only truly by understanding the lived experiences of this crisis that we can ensure that the right help is given, and I think that we have done our best to capture their voices in our report. But, we all have a responsibility to ensure now that people needing support are aware of where and when they can access it, and to make sure that the support is as accessible as possible for people in need to receive it.

Mark Isherwood AC: The committee's report found that the Welsh Government's £360 million Warm Homes programme lacked scale, size and purpose. This is a matter of serious concern, as is the report's finding that the drastic changes to the energy market over the course of this year are expected to hit the poorest households in Wales harder than any other UK nation or region, according to the National Institute of Economic and Social Research.
Although the Welsh Government accepted 21 of the report's recommendations, it's concerning that it accepted the remaining two only in principle. As I stated in this Chamber last autumn as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, it is the collective view of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee that the use of 'accept in principle' must not be used in response to committee reports again, and recommendations must either be accepted or rejected. Where further work is required to implement a recommendation, or if a deadline for implementation cannot be met, this should be set out clearly in the detail of the response.
Separately, as Chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, I am also aware of concerns within Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru about the Welsh Government's responses to some of the report's recommendations that it has accepted. As National Energy Action, NEA Cymru, stated in its submission to the committee's consultation,
'current schemes are insufficient to address the scale of fuel poverty in Wales, let alone decarbonise homes....now is a vital moment to consider how far the current Programme has taken us, and going forward take the opportunity to provide guaranteed support for the 'worst first'—i.e. those on the lowest incomes in the least efficient homes—improving the lives of fuel poor households as we decarbonise and upgrade the energy efficiency of their homes.'
They said that
'Poor energy efficiency is a key driver of fuel poverty and more than 80% of fuel poor households in Wales live in inefficient homes; higher than any other UK nation.'
They said that
'The resulting impact of poor-quality housing on health services is acute, costing the NHS in Wales approximately £95m every year. Conversely, Public Health Wales estimated that for every £1 spent on improving warmth in vulnerable households, this results in £4 of health benefits, and there could be close to 40% fewer hospital admissions for some cold-related illnesses in those with upgraded homes. The average annual saving for bringing a home up to a reasonable level of energy efficiency is...over £300 every year and over £1,000 for the poorest households in the least efficient homes.'
They concluded that: there must be adequate funding to meet the problem and that this funding should be spent on a 'fabric first' basis, working on the energy efficiency of the built environment to get homes net zero ready before, or at the same time as, making changes to the heating in a home; the programme must be delivered with adequate advice and awareness raising; and there must also be trust from households that the changes that are made to their homes will be of good quality, underpinned by access to sufficient redress. Lastly, to ensure confidence, there must be transparency in government plans.
As both they and the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru state, it is vital that the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme focuses on lifting households out of fuel poverty, supporting the worst first—i.e., those on the lowest incomes in the least efficient homes—and is backed by sufficient long-term funding and legislation to meet targets set in the Welsh Government’s tackling fuel poverty plan. With reference to funding, they state that although the Welsh Government accepted the recommendation that it should identify the funding required to respond by reviewing the sufficiency of its spending allocations for energy efficiency in housing, the response regarding this is non-committal, and that investment and funding to hit fuel poverty targets is needed. Overall, they state the key thing is a Warm Homes programme to lift households out of fuel poverty, lifting the worst first.
As the Auditor General for Wales stated in his report last November on the Welsh Government’s management of the current Warm Homes programme,
'When looking at any replacements for the Warm Homes Programme, the Welsh Government have several issues to resolve. These include rethinking the energy efficiency measures offered, being clearer about the core purpose of the Programme and tightening future contracts to align costs and to incentivise better value for money.'

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the committee for its work. I welcome the report, and it echoes much of what I’ve heard. Unlike the committee, I cannot speak on behalf of the rest of Wales, but I can speak on behalf of my own constituency on the frustrations experienced in trying to implement some of these plans, and also the lessons to be learnt.
I want to focus on some of the lessons from one experience in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. Consider the village of Tanygrisiau in the Ffestiniog area. Tanygrisiau suffers the worst level of fuel poverty in the UK, and it’s among the lowest income levels—and they are off gas, too. My predecessor, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, had been battling to find a solution to the heating problems in Tanygrisiau since his election back in 1974. Around two years ago, Arbed am Byth came to Tanygrisiau, but from what I’ve heard, the scheme cannot be described as being successful there.
The contract was given to a Scottish company, who were supposed to partner with a local organisation, Y Dref Werdd, which knows the area well and has been battling to resolve fuel poverty in the area for years. But there was no discussion at all between this company and Y Dref Werdd, although Y Dref Werdd were the grass-roots partner. We must learn that lesson, therefore, and ensure that there is local input in developing this work.
The financial contract went to a company from Scotland, but it was volunteers from Y Dref Werdd who had to market and advertise these plans, and they did so voluntarily. The company had no understanding of the area, never mind the topography of the area. They had thought that they could introduce gas pipes for some of the homes in order to deliver against their targets, but there’s a reason why that infrastructure isn’t in place—because there’s strong stone under the ground. If they’d had discussions with people on the ground then they would have known about that, and would have adapted their plans.
Ultimately there were 41 PV panels, and that’s a step forward, of course. But no direction was given as to how to make the best of these panels, and it’s entirely insufficient to resolve the fuel poverty in that area. With Nest, they identified the most frightening problems in the homes, and they resolved them, but the other works were not done. For example, if there was a need for a new boiler, then that boiler was installed, but nothing was done to insulate the home, exactly as Jenny Rathbone explained at the beginning of this debate.
If I could just mention one thing that the report has missed, and that is there are similar programmes being implemented from Westminster, such as the ECO programme. There are cases where Welsh Government and UK Government schemes can run alongside each other, but they can also conflict. To the ordinary person on the ground, it makes no sense that these programmes compete with each other; they don't understand why these programmes can't work together. So, I would also suggest that any new plans from Government should look at what else is being put in place, and if it is possible to dovetail the work in order to make the most of it.
Recommendation 6 that the next programme needs to be more ambitious, to all intents and purposes, is entirely right and should be accepted. And as Sioned Williams said, nowhere near enough funding that is needed has been invested to date. It does suggest that the Government doesn't fully appreciate the scale of the challenge facing them. Our housing stock in Gwynedd is among the oldest in Europe, with many listed buildings and many within the national park. So, what will the Government do to ensure that these buildings can take advantage of any new programme for the future?
I hope, with those few words, that these lessons can be learned as the Government moves forward to develop its new plans.

Carolyn Thomas AS: During my time as county councillor, I gained first-hand experience of people struggling with fuel poverty and trying to cope with the additional burden of faulty heating systems, especially off grid. I was asked to visit an elderly resident who was having problems with her oil central heating. The lady had her doors and windows wide open to release the terrible fumes, and the house was absolutely freezing. The leaking oil boiler was in the old lady's pantry and it was terrible. Not only was the lady suffering fumes and was cold, she had mobility issues and was partially sighted as well. I soon discovered that others had boilers installed in the old pantries.
I also visited residents of a sheltered housing accommodation complex, and they had storage heaters that ran out of heat by four o'clock, and then had to plug in electric heaters, which were really costly. They were cold in their properties, and I campaigned to get mains gas up to their village. The council were eventually able to work with the utility company and they helped to fund it, and it made such a difference. They installed gas central heating in the properties. Some were suspicious of having gas, but many felt blessed not to have the large old boilers inside the houses, and the homes were so much warmer with a reliable form of heating.
I've been contacted by residents who have had broken old boilers and no central heating, and unable to afford to replace them, wondering what they can do, and they've been put in touch with the grant funding from Welsh Government. They've been upgraded to gas boilers, taking up little room and being reliable through the scheme. I'm telling these stories because not all properties, especially older ones, are suitable for air source heat pumps, and replacement gas boilers over recent years have been extremely beneficial to many, and should not be discounted, especially for those with no alternatives when they've been absolutely desperate. This funding has been a lifeline to many people.
Where possible and in all new-build homes, air source heat pumps should be, of course, used, and solar, and I've seen the benefit of this being installed. Ten years ago, when I visited this elderly lady, we also had a new development being built of 43 houses, and they all had air source heat pumps. Again, people were suspicious of them, but they worked and they've been really good. That, again, was thanks to Welsh Government funding at that time, to help afford to build that.
We do have issues, though, with connecting to grid, and that overlaps into the next debate going forward. Where solar energy has been fitted to sheltered accommodation bungalows, those that have just gone to the mains gas, there are issues that they cannot connect to the mains grid now. So, we need to make sure the boiler repairs and replacements are made in the best interests of tenants, helping to keep their bills down and their homes warm, ensuring that homes are insulated and have effective heating. It's the best tool the Welsh Government has for helping people to survive this crisis.
A lot of the houses now have also gone through enveloping works, and it really does make a difference. In fact, all the council houses now in the area that I represented have gone through the enveloping works. That's funded by the council, but also working with Welsh Governmentand the funding. In the shorter term, measures taken by Wales have been a lifeline, especially the vouchers for those on prepaid meters, and they've been offering vital instant relief. I've been to the foodbank for people, to help collect food, but when they've had no power to heat and to cook the food, it's been incredible, wondering what to do, and I've actually tried to help them, putting money in the meter myself. But now, to have those vouchers available is just making such a difference, so, I'm so grateful for that. We now need to ensure that the Warm Homes scheme assists as many houses as possible as quickly as possible for the long-term benefit. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I do welcome the inquiry and report from the Equality and Social Justice Committee on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme, and thank Members for their contributions in this important debate today.
But the report from this inquiry makes a valuable contribution to the delivery of our programmes and initiatives to tackle the cost-of-living crisis, particularly in the current economic and political climate, and it was a far-sighted decision to undertake this inquiry, and we thank the committee for their evidence, their insights and their recommendations. As your report makes clear, the cost of energy has become increasingly influential in determining the level of fuel poverty in Wales. The energy price increase assault on our living standards has had a devastating effect already on households who are least able to pay. Many can no longer afford the essentials on which we all depend in our everyday lives; the inconceivable cruelty of families not being able to put food on the table or provide basic essentials, such as heating and lighting, in 2022 is hard to believe but is the reality for so many.
Just reporting on some of the actions and many more, of course, that have been brought forward in a statement yesterday by the First Minister, but actions since the report was published on 4 August, I met with Ofgem about changes being made to the frequency of changes to the price cap. And I met Ofgem again on 26 August, with the Minister for Climate Change, the day the October price was announced, and we expressed deep concerns at the price-cap increase to £3,549. The new Prime Minister has taken steps to act upon the concerns we've raised, with the announcement of the energy price, and I look forward to the UK Government's update on Friday. However, we remain concerned—a price cap of £2,500 over two years fails to provide additional targeted support to those who need it most. The UK Government has the financial firepower and moral responsibility to better support householders through this crisis. And we've consistently called for a social domestic energy tariff, set lower than standard tariffs, to better protect low-income households. We've called for a significant increase in the rebate paid through schemes, such as the Warm Homes discount, the permanent removal of all social and environmental policy costs from household energy bills, and for these costs to be met from general taxation, at least part-funded by windfall tax on the excess profits being enjoyed by gas and oil producers.
On 17 February and 11 July, with the support of my Cabinet colleagues, the Ministers for Climate Change and Finance and Local Government, I hosted summits to explore what more the Welsh Government can do to support households through this difficult time. But on 26 May, I also met with energy suppliers, including heating oil companies, to seek assurances that steps are being taken to protect vulnerable households as winter approaches. And we are taking action, investing more than £318 million since October on a range of measures to help those most in need. I've expanded the support available through the discretionary assistance fund to households living off grid, to help with the purchase of heating oil and liquid gas, particularly important for rural communities and raised in this debate today. More than 900,000 households have received their £150 cost-of-living payment this year, and the winter fuel support payment of £200 reached more than 166,000 households. The Welsh Government fuel support scheme is now up and running for this coming winter, and we will be open for applications from next Monday, 26 September.
And I welcome the recommendations from the Equality and Social Justice Committee on the significant Welsh Government cost-of-living initiative. As I said in my response to the recommendations, we are working with the local authorities to ensure that we can reach out and improve that take-up, but also, as Members will know, we have extended the scheme, which means that up to 400,000 households will be eligible. People on child tax credits, pension credits, disability benefits, carer's allowance, as well as contributory benefits and those receiving help from the council tax reduction scheme to pay their council tax bill will now all be eligible for the £200 payment. I know that all partners and, indeed, all Members will play their part to ensure that there is a robust take-up of this scheme. I've written to the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee providing further information on the take-up of the fuel support scheme introduced last year, and I will update that as we get further information.
But, Members will know that we're also funding the Fuel Bank Foundation to expand its network, to offer support to the most vulnerable households across Wales that have to prepay for their fuel. Working with our partners in the Trussell Trust, I was pleased to launch this in Wrexham, where their foodbank had already developed this scheme and also learnt from Blaenau Gwent foodbank, who were already engaged with the initiative. But, the scheme will also provide them with support to top up their prepayment meter or purchase a full tank of heating oil.
We continue to call for the removal of standing charges from prepayment meter tariffs. As a matter of priority, we're working with stakeholders to make sure that people are aware of the short-term support on offer to help with the immediate crisis. And following the success of the two 'Claim what's yours' campaigns, we have helped people claim more than £2.7 million in extra income, and we will run a third 'Claim what's yours' campaign to help people access all the benefits from Welsh Government, UK Government, and the support that they're entitled to. But, longer term action is needed, as made clear in the recommendations in this report. Improving the energy efficiency of our homes and ensuring that we use only the energy we need to create a decent and safe home is our long-term ambition. Our housing retrofit programmes are based on principles of treating the worst first, on a fabric-first basis, with heating measures designed to deliver a just transition to low-carbon heating for the health and well-being of our people and the planet.
The consultation outcome report on the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme will be published later this year. The Minister for Climate Change will also publish a written statement setting out how these recommendations will be considered in the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme. And at the same time, we continue to invest in the current Warm Homes programme, increasing its budget by 10 per cent this year to £30 million, with a total investment of £100 million in the current three-year budget settlement. This will support approximately 5,000 households with much-needed free home energy efficiency measures by the end of this financial year. The Nest scheme is also expected to provide free, impartial energy-efficiency advice via the helpline to over 1,600-plus households per year. This will be extended from November with a winter fuel campaign to provide advice and signposting to vital support services, as I've outlined.
Finally, the Nest contract also continues to innovate, and this year has included the installation of solar panels. This will shortly be supplemented with the introduction of battery-storage solutions, which remain recommended through the whole-house assessment. The combination of these two measures will help to mitigate the worst of the recent indiscriminate energy price rises, making the solar energy accessible to households during peak times, when the solar photovoltaics are less efficient. We obviously take other evidence today from the debate in terms of access to the grid.
On behalf of the Welsh Government, I again welcome this valuable report, accepting 21 recommendations in full and two recommendations in principle. Those will be delivered, and we'll seek to implement these recommendations with the importance that they deserve, supporting our collective efforts to respond to the cost-of-living crisis and tackling poverty in all its forms, including fuel poverty. This will also provide sustainable actions in response to the climate emergency.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. Thank you to all the people who took part in the debate, particularly those who haven't been involved in the committee's deliberations. I think it's particularly important to hear from other people who are able to give a particular specialist view, whether it's of their constituency or of their specialist interest in fuel poverty. I think that there is still quite a lot of need to clarify a lot of the detail on all of this, and the committee is going to follow up with some written correspondence so that we can get a better idea of exactly (a) how we're going to respond to the current crisis, and, (b) the latest Warm Homes programme, which I appreciate is the Minister for Climate Change's remit, and she is currently not able to be with us. So, we look forward to her very important plans for the long-term future of our country.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Just looking at what other people have said, we need to—. As Altaf has reiterated, a recession beckons, and therefore things can only get worse. Sioned Williams spoke about the damp conditions that families have always had to put up with every winter, regardless of the current crisis. I think several Members spoke about the need to really take on board the audit office's report, which was published nearly a year ago now. Now, the Welsh Government has accepted all its recommendations, and to do the Welsh Government credit, we are now seeing regular evaluations of programmes, to ensure that programmes are delivering on what they're supposed to be doing.
It was very useful to hear from Mabon ap Gwynfor about the particular problems that have been faced by one of the poorest and coldest communities in his constituency, where the contract went to an organisation that wasn't familiar with the topography of the area, and although solar panels were recommended and were installed, it didn't maximise the benefit because it didn't go with insulation, and that is something that came out of our report. One of the reasons why Carolyn picked up on the issue of air source heat pumps is there really isn't any point in installing air source heat pumps in homes that haven't been insulated, because it just actually increases the bills, because then you've got a massive electric bill instead of a massive gas bill. So, I think the emphasis that the Minister put on fabric-first as the way forward is definitely a very useful one, because we definitely need to—. Even if we don't have the technology today that will suit particular homes, we need to ensure that we're not losing the heat that we are currently losing.
One of the things that Jane Dodds said was to point out just how the last Warm Homes programme fell short of what we need to do to protect our families and make our own contribution to the climate emergency. So, in 2020, it would have taken 111 years to complete the insulation of all our homes, and in 2021, with the rate at which things were being done, it would take 138 years. The planet can't wait for that. We absolutely have to get on with it now. So, I think that one of the things that we absolutely have to, all of us, do is ensure that people are thinking 'insulation, insulation, insulation' as well as 'renewables, renewables, renewables.'
Two little stories. One is: I spoke to somebody on the doorstep this morning, saying, 'I see you're having your roof replaced, had you thought about putting solar panels on your south-facing roof?' 'Oh, that's a good idea—I hadn't thought of that.' So, I said, 'Well, you really do need to get on with it now, because you've got the scaffolding up, and your roofers, who are not qualified to do this work, will tell you that they'll be able to be instructed as to where you've got to put the reinforcements to install the solar panels.' Otherwise, you undo all the good work before you can install new ones. The second is a small business who absolutely delighted me by telling me that he got 17 solar panels installed just in the last week, and showed me the little meter that showed just how much energy he was generating, and therefore how much money he was saving, which will keep his business alive. Unless businesses are thinking along these lines, 'How can I do something?'—. If you've got the money, you need to invest it in insulating your home and installing renewables. There is no alternative to this. So, I think we have very significant challenges ahead as the Audit Wales report absolutely made clear, and the statistics speak for themselves, I'm afraid, in terms of the difficulties we’re facing this winter.
One of the points that Sarah Murphy raised is what happens to people who can’t go to warm hubs? If you’re terminally ill, you probably don’t want to be mixing with a lot of other people. How are they going to be kept warm this winter? Because they’re not going to benefit from warm hubs and they may be desperately trying to ensure the best life that remains for that individual, but how are they going to do that without impacting on the lives of the other members of the family, and that’s something I think we really do need to think about? Thank you very much for all your contributions.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee Report—Renewable energy in Wales

Item 8 is withdrawn.

9. Motion to approve the Official Languages Scheme for the Sixth Senedd and note the annual report on the Official Languages Scheme for 2021-22

Item 9 has been postponed to 28 September.

10. Debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee Report—Review of the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021

And item 10 is postponed to 12 October.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

We will therefore move on to our next item, the motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow amendments to NDM8073 to be considered.
I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move. Darren Millar.

Motion NNDM8075 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends Standing Order 12.22(i) to allow amendments to NDM8073 to be considered in Plenary on Wednesday 21 September 2022.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: Move.

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Plaid Cymru Debate: Cost of living

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We now move to item 11, the Plaid Cymru debate—cost of living. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8073 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that the current increases in energy bills are unsustainable and that they will cause financial strain and hardship on households, businesses, and community groups, whilst fossil fuel companies are making record profits.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to immediately implement broader cost-of-living emergency measures, such as:
a) halving rail fares and cap bus fares;
b) working with local authorities to clear some of the significant council tax arrears that have been built up over the course of the pandemic;
c) a rent freeze;
d) reinstating measures to ban winter evictions;
e) expanding the free school meals scheme to secondary school children;
f) increasing the educational maintenance allowance to £45.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The purpose of Plaid Cymru's motion today and our first debate of this new term is to foreground the need for further, immediate and emergency action by the Welsh Government on the cost-of-living crisis to support the Welsh people in the face of hardship described by many who work in the field of poverty as ‘Victorian’. It is of course a crisis, but it is a crisis long in its making—this is no sudden economic earthquake. Brexit, the COVID-19 pandemic, geopolitics and war have of course played their part, as have the cruel Conservative policies of austerity, which have been inflicted on our people by a Westminster Government they didn’t vote for.
The people of Wales are suffering because the main levers and resources that could help protect the families of Wales remain at Westminster, and the measures so far outlined by the Tory Governments in London under Johnson and Truss are, unsurprisingly, wholly inadequate and not sufficiently targeted at those most in need. We must be in no doubt that this is a true emergency. You know the economy is in trouble when even employers of high earners are concerned for their staff. Lloyd's of London will pay an extra £2,500 to staff with a base salary of £75,000 a year to help cover rising living costs.
The increases in energy bills we have seen, which mean that average bills will be at the level of £2,500 a year, are, as the head of National Energy Action Wales, Ben Saltmarsh, succinctly put it when news finally came of some action from Westminster, 'not normal'. Twice what they were a year ago, these bills are completely unsustainable. This is not 'job done'.And it must be remembered also that this is not a cap—this is not a limit on how much your bill will be. Many households will face higher bills than this. If you’re disabled, for example, you will be disproportionately impacted by the rising cost of living because you are more likely to be on a lower income, have higher living costs and need accessible transport, specialist diet and have higher costs for gas and electricity to keep your temperature stable and power essential equipment. And you have no choice on whether to turn that ventilator off or not charge that hoist.
Another group who are being hard hit are our future doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers and scientists, learners and students. Heledd Fychan will speak about the need to increase the level of education maintenance allowance to support them. And as Plaid Cymru spokesperson for post-16 education, I want to speak up for the 92 per cent of Welsh students who have told the National Union of Students that they are concerned about their ability to cope financially. Eleven per cent of them are accessing food banks. Student rent has risen 29 per cent in Wales in the last three years and maintenance support is not keeping up with inflation. A rent freeze across all sectors would help address this. Students have also faced a postcode lottery in terms of accessing the cost-of-living council tax rebate because of the inconsistency in the way local authorities have distributed the support.

Sioned Williams MS: The measures already announced by Welsh Government referenced in their amendments are, of course, welcome. Some, like free school meals, will be transformational. But there is much more that needs to be done; some of these are just not going to touch the sides. We heard the First Minister yesterday announce only one new measure, support for warm banks, and insist that efforts must be not on funding new initiatives to tackle this crisis but on maximising the take-up of those currently available. The purpose of our motion, passed before the recess, on making the winter fuel support scheme fit for purpose was to highlight that very vital need for the support available to reach the pockets of the eligible.
The data published recently in answer to questions from the Equality and Social Justice Committee about the delivery of payments under this scheme, which will be again starting soon, listed payments made by local authority but offered no reference either to the proportion of eligible households taking up the payments or if any of those households had protected characteristics. I would like to know how and when the review of the last round took place, which the Prif Weinidog assured me had happened when I asked him yesterday. What crucial lessons have been learnt in order to ensure help is reaching those in need?
I made it clear earlier that this is no sudden catastrophe. One in three of our children have been living in poverty for the last two decades, the highest of all UK constituent countries, and we were the only UK nation to see child poverty rise instead of fall over the pandemic period. As well as the factors that I've already alluded to, which have contributed to this dire situation, attention must be drawn to the inertia and inadequacy of successive Welsh Governments to tackle shameful levels of poverty, which left Welsh households so vulnerable in the face of the storm that is now upon us. Back in 2009, Victoria Winckler of the Bevan Foundation, in response to research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation on what was needed to eradicate child poverty by 2020, stated, and I quote:
'The opportunity for the Welsh Assembly Government to seek further legislative powers to tackle child poverty should...be considered.'
Let us remind ourselves that a Labour Government was in power in Westminster at that time. Let us remind ourselves it was said in 2009. The Labour Welsh Government has had the opportunity to create change, yet has dragged their heels. And now, in 2022, our people are facing the hardest winter since our nation has had a Welsh Government to serve and support them. The logical wider conclusion to draw from our motion today is that Wales needs more power to protect its people. Even with all the measures announced, tens of thousands of people in Wales still face a winter going without essentials like food or the ability to wash with hot water, or having to borrow money at increasing interest rates just to meet the rising cost of living. If you acknowledge this crisis, vote for our motion. Vote for our motion if you believe that by passing the set of emergency measures we call for we can ensure people have money in their pockets when they need it and that there are more ways in which the Welsh Government can help the people it is meant to serve in the face of these skyrocketing bills, stagnating wages, cruel cuts to welfare and record increases in food prices and essentials.
This may mean looking again at departmental budgets. I think the scale of the crisis merits that. We are suggesting consideration of wide-ranging steps, many of which other Governments are implementing—capping transport costs, freezing rents, banning winter evictions. Vote for our motion if you agree it is the duty of the Welsh Government to act proportionately to the scale of this crisis, holistically and quickly. My fellow Plaid Cymru Members will outline why we are calling for the specific measures, and it would be good to hear Members' views on these measures and suggestions for further actions that can be taken. I look forward to hearing Members' views and urge you to show your constituents that their Senedd hears them and will support them.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peter Fox to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete all and replace with:
Notes that the UK Government has introduced an energy profits levy.
Welcomes the action taken by the UK Government to tackle the cost of living, including:
a) an energy price guarantee, capping energy costs;
b) cost-of-living payments for those on low income benefits and tax credits worth £650;
c) a disability cost-of-living payment worth £150;
d) monthly reductions in fuel bills from October worth £400;
e) an increase in the National Living Wage to £9.50 an hour;
f) a reduction in the universal credit taper rate;
g) a freeze on fuel duty;
h) a two year freeze on the TV licence fee;
i) extra winter fuel payments.
Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to support people, businesses and the third sector to meet the challenges ahead.

Amendment 1 moved.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendment tabled in the name of the Member for Clwyd West, Darren Millar. It goes without saying that the past few years have been very difficult—that's an understatement—for families and communities across Wales and beyond, and the cost-of-living crisis is another huge burden facing almost every family that we represent, and I won't be playing party politics within this debate; it's too important. We need action.
However, this is an issue that is not unique to us in Wales. Across the world, countries are grappling with these issues. I met recently with a family from Bavaria, one from France and one from Italy, all facing very similar situations in their own countries, and so this isn't unique to us. And of course, as our amendment describes, the UK Government has introduced a substantial package of measures to date, worth around £37 billion, to help support communities the length and breadth of the country: cost-of-living payments to families, as well as the increase in the national living wage.
I very much welcome the recent energy price guarantee, which we know will cap those average prices to £2,500, where we were frightened that they were going to be moving to £3,500. We know that £2,500 is still a lot more than they would have paid last year and there is more to be done. And I also welcome this morning's announcement that businesses will have their energy bills covered to 50 per cent of their energy costs for six months, and reviewed in three months to see if that can continue. And I know that many people have called for additional windfall tax to help pay for these schemes, but right now we really need companies investing in new green energy supplies to boost our energy security and to prevent such issues from happening again. More could be done, however, to ensure profits are reinvested back into communities.
I also look forward to hearing about the additional measures that the new UK Government is expected to take later this week to help people keep more of their money in their pockets. But, Deputy Llywydd, as I have repeatedly said in this Chamber, more support will be needed over the coming weeks and months, and, collectively, the Welsh and UK Governments, as well as us in the Senedd, need to be working with all partners to introduce support to help people meet any upcoming challenges, and the Welsh Government does need to use all of the financial levers available to it to ensure that people have all of the support they need.
Some of the suggestions raised in the original motion are things that I agree could be looked at during this difficult time: for example, how to limit the cost of public transport, providing support to those in substantial council tax arrears through no fault of their own, and providing help to students and young people from lower income backgrounds. As Sioned said, NUS Wales have pointed out students facing a postcode lottery in terms of accessing council tax rebate, as it has depended on how individual local authorities distributed the support.
But I would also like to see the Welsh Government deliver additional support such as expanding the eligibility of existing schemes to encompass families who normally do not require help, such as those who do not receive benefits. It needs to be made easier for people to receive the help that they need, such as a single point of access and automatic passporting onto schemes for disadvantaged households, whilst the Welsh Government could also look to better support local councils to help families through this crisis, such as working with them to increase the capacity of local support services, as well as easing the ever-increasing burden on council tax.
Finally, there needs to be a more targeted approach, such as help for people facing long-term sickness and those receiving end-of-life care. Some of you who visited the Macmillan event yesterday will have heard how the average person suffering with cancer has an ongoing monthly additional cost of around £800 a month. Surely, then, there needs to be additional support provided to those individuals, such as extending existing discretionary support or perhaps putting things in like free bus passes for those who are affected.
Deputy Llywydd, I know there are different opinions on how best to tackle this crisis, and let's be under no illusion that there is no silver bullet to end this, but my hope is, by working constructively together, we can help reduce the strain on people and businesses and, eventually, overcome this terrible crisis. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Believes the UK Government is failing to grasp the severity of this crisis and that it would allow working people to cover the cost of an energy cap instead of taxing the record profits of gas and oil producers.
Welcomes the £1.6bn invested in targeted cost-of-living support and universal programmes which put money back in people’s pockets provided by the Welsh Government this financial year, including:
a) extending the £200 Winter Fuel Support Payment to 400,000 households this winter;
b) rolling out universal primary free school meals from September 2022;
c) investing £51.6m in the Discretionary Assistance Fund to provide an emergency lifeline for people in severe financial crisis;
d) £4m to fund fuel vouchers to help people on pre-payment meters and a fuel bank for people not on mains gas.

Amendment 2 moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Formally.

Delyth Jewell AC: Crises don't abate when it's inconvenient for them to be continuing. If we ignore them, they don't go away, and the cost-of-living crisis is not a crisis that has paled in significance, as one broadcaster put it, because of the events of the past week, nor had the turmoil and panic felt by people across the UK been put on hold when the Westminster Government put itself on hold over the summer. No, crises are all-consuming.
People talk about the winter of discontent, but what we've had in this all-consuming crisis mode is a summer of disregard, of indifference being shown by those in power, of an absent Cabinet, of one tarnished Prime Minister handing power to another who is completely untested and who refused for months to tell us how she would deal with this crisis.
But now, at last, we know how Truss plans to keep the most desperate people alive over winter, unless, of course, they happen to have the misfortune of being on pre-payment meters or being off the gas grid. Bills for everyone else will be frozen at an agonising level that will push people into excruciating debt. Destitution, real destitution is just at the door for thousands.
If the price cap is not brought back down to pre-April levels as we have advocated, people will die avoidable deaths. That really is what we're talking about here, and not only is this cap too high, the way that Truss has determined it will be funded is underhanded. Energy firms who've made billions in excess, unearned profits will keep those profits. They won't face an extra tax on them. Instead, taxpayers will subsidise the bills. We'll keep paying through the nose, just drawn out over a longer period. The wealth at the top, that avaricious, immoral wealth, stays intact, untouched, untapped by people at the bottom.
Is it any wonder that people say, 'Enough is enough'? Enough of this topsy-turvy system where Westminster favours the short-term fixes of fracking just to keep this moment in time and that glut of money fixed for the shareholders, those murky money makers that nobody sees, with no thought given to the future, the skies they're clogging, the earth they are poisoning. They failed to keep the stocks of gas we need because of this obsession with the here and now, maximising the money while the good times roll, with scant concern for what happens when the music stops.
How differently might we have fared in Wales had the Swansea bay tidal lagoon been given permission? With powers over energy production, with proceeds from the Crown Estate, how differently might things look if we had a system that invested profits in our collective future, rather than locking them out of reach? Instead, of course the richest households will have twice as much help as the poorest, of course Truss's Cabinet is pouncing on this chance to undermine net zero—anything that keeps that moneyball spilling for the richest. The rest of it, to them, is just white noise.
So, the uproar of dread, the clamour of consternation voiced by millions has never touched them, and they are deaf to the pleas of our planet. But that climate catastrophe, Dirprwy Lywydd, that will not abate while the billionaires get richer either. If we ignore that, it will not go away. Now is the time to bring energy companies into public hands, to invest in green energy, to insulate our homes, to save our planet, fortify our future. Now is the time for radical thinking, bringing down public transport costs, waiving council tax arrears, freezing rents, helping people to stay alive. Because crises are all-consuming, like flames, and if we don't put them out and quickly, the scars they'll leave will never heal.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'll struggle to follow that, Delyth. It was very good.
I strongly believe that fossil fuel companies and shareholders should not be profiting from the high price of fossil fuel, while households, businesses and public services are suffering such severe hardship. Councils and community groups are looking at setting up warm homes and soup kitchens. How has this been allowed to happen in twenty-first century Britain? The EU is looking at charging 33 per cent tax on profit, and this will mean taking back £140 billion from the energy companies. But rather than a windfall tax, the Tories would rather working people shoulder the burden. One hundred and seventy billion in excess profits, the Treasury predicts, yet the Prime Minister's bailout will cost £150 billion in taxpayers' money, putting the country into further debt for generations to come. Workers are already working long shifts, often unsociable hours for the same pay, impacting on mental health, families and childcare. They have faced the consequences of a race to the bottom over the last decade or more.
The UK Government talks about growing the economy through business and the creation of good, well-paid jobs. Well, there are plenty of vacancies in health and the public sector that they are struggling to fill—jobs that were once well paid. It's time the UK Government started to grow the economy by properly funding our public services. We need them now more than ever. We can then invest in our transport infrastructure, rebuild our NHS and care homes, build zero-carbon social housing and put money back in people's pockets. We had a decent NHS and public services before austerity, but we were told that we had to tighten our belts year after year, shaving 30 per cent each time off social care, education and transport. It is the public sector that stepped in here in Wales to help with the pandemic, and it is the public sector who will have to deliver the grants, help create warm rooms and deliver food for people.
The UK Government blames Putin's war, but the cost-of-living crisis was an issue before then. Food prices have increased significantly because of the poor handling of Brexit. And I note from past debates that, despite a reduction in real-terms funding, the Welsh Government is delivering help to residents twice that it has received from UK Government for that purpose. The fuel vouchers and all the grant funding packages are great, but it's not sustainable; it's bureaucratic and costly to deliver.
I saw a local authority advertising for 12 benefits staff to deliver grant funding on £19,500 a year, which means that they will probably also need benefits—and so the circle continues—and help with heating and food. The energy price cap should not have been raised. The UK Government should have been bold and kept the pre-April price cap of £1,277. We need a real pay rise for workers and a significant uplift in universal credit. And we can do this by taxing the rich 10 per cent. And, Delyth, enough is enough.

Heledd Fychan AS: I would like to begin just by echoing Sioned Williams's calls. If we're serious about tackling this emergency, then we must support what the proposals are here. And I would like to dispute Peter Fox's assertion that our motion is party political. It isn't. It offers practical steps that we can take here now. If anything is party political, it's your amendment, which lists what the UK Government have been doing, and also, the Labour amendment is also a list of things that have been taken, not additional things we can do, because the steps that have been taken by both Governments aren't going far enough, and there is more we can do. We have to accept that political decisions are responsible for this crisis, and we must take into account that there are things that are within our control here, and the list that we have in our motion should be supported by everybody, if we're acknowledging the scale of the crisis.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thanks to the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, more pupils are in receipt of free school meals since the beginning of this month, as part of the roll-out of free school meals to all primary school children by 2024. But we should be striving to expand this free school meals scheme to every secondary school pupil too, as a matter of urgency, to help to tackle the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on our children and young people, and to tackle child poverty, which is increasingly a problem here in Wales. And as I mentioned yesterday, we must now look at expanding eligibility for free school meals to a wider range of children and young people. As the Welsh Government’s child poverty review found, not all of those who need free school meals receive them.
The Welsh Government has been trying to tackle high levels of poverty in Wales for years, and indeed, it could be argued, since the beginning of this Senedd, and yet the situation is getting worse. I'm sure that a number of us remember the ambition to eradicate child poverty by 2020, after the Welsh Government commissioned in 2003 the child poverty task and finish group to investigate the impacts of severe child poverty in Wales, at a time when one in three children were living in poverty.
Almost two decades later, this figure has hardly changed at all. No council ward anywhere in Wales has a child poverty rate below 12 per cent. And even before the pandemic, around 195,000 children were living in a household below the poverty line. Due to these high rates of child poverty, our children are being disproportionately impacted by the cost of living crisis. We know that child poverty is causing serious and lifelong harm to children’s outcomes, which worsen the longer a child lives in poverty.
Growing up in poverty and experiencing the related stress and strain leads to adverse childhood experiences, and this will affect an individual throughout their life. It is traumatic for a child to grow up without their needs being met. This is likely to have a negative impact on their mental health, their self-image, self-worth, physical health, education and ensuing career path, as well as the ability to socialise normally and to engage with their contemporaries, and the likelihood that they will be involved in crime, either as a victim or as a perpetrator.
Food prices rose at the fastest rate in August for 27 years. The proportion of people living in households with one or two children that are having to cut back on food has almost doubled since November 2021—since we were elected to this sixth Senedd. Bearing in mind the fact that there is a significant body of evidence demonstrating the effect of poor nutrition during childhood on a child's long-term health outlook, the fact that one in five households with two children is cutting back on food for those children is particularly worrying. We have to do more in this regard.
But, alongside expanding the free school meal provision and support to provide the very best start to every child, we must also look at the education maintenance allowance. This sum has remained at the same level, namely £30 a week, since it was introduced in 2004. For a little under 20 years, it hasn't increased at all, despite costs continuing to increase. We know how vital this payment is, and the difference it makes in terms of young people being able to continue in education or not; for the parents to be able to keep their children in education.
We have to increase the EMA now to £45 per week as part of this emergency package of cost-of-living measures, to ensure that this crisis doesn't have a negative impact on our young people and learners, along with their ambitions and the opportunities available to them. There is more that we could and should be doing, if we are serious about giving the very best start in life to every child in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much to Plaid Cymru. I agree entirely with what Sioned, Delyth and Carolyn have said. Thank you very much.

Jane Dodds AS: We are in a really dark and dire situation right now, and we've known about what's coming down the tracks for months. Rather than spend the summer preparing and setting out a really comprehensive package of support to protect people this winter, all we have seen is the UK Conservative Government looking inwards, at itself and its own preservation.
We really can't underestimate the real impact that this crisis will have. I, for one—and I know that there are others here as well—am really, literally terrified about what the next few months will bring to people in my region and across Wales, and we should all be that way. People's lives are at risk, and if the right measures to protect people aren't in place very soon, people will die, as we've heard.
We must ensure that it is those with the deepest pockets and the broadest shoulders—in fact, those same people making unexpected and unfathomable profits—pay the way. Any plan that pushes more people into debt and kicks the can down the road to future generationswill just cause long-term pain. Trickle-down economics; well, I’ve learnt something about that. I’ve learnt something about it from Joe Biden yesterday, who said, and I quote,
‘I am sick and tired of trickle-down economics. It has never worked.’
And yet that’s what the UK Conservative Government are going to do. And Peter Fox, with the greatest respect, you say let’s keep party politics out of this. Well, why did your Government take £20 a week from universal credit payments to the poorest of our people? I could spend the entire two and a half minutes that I’ve got left talking about the UK Conservative Government. I’d need a lot longer, actually. But I am going to focus, as has been said, on what are the most practical issues that the Welsh Government can enact to help people here in Wales—transport, debt and housing and homelessness. I do thank Plaid Cymru for setting that out really clearly. Because there’s very little we can do here, but our colleagues over there can do quite a lot about the shameful behaviour of the UK Conservative Government.
But there’s a lot that we can do here in Wales, so let’s start with transport. I have already proposed and called for urgent action on public transport costs, and we debated in January my proposal to introduce free public transport on journeys starting and ending in Wales for under 25-year-olds. We need to see that enacted, and I do know that the Minister will be looking at that. Spain has cut costs on commuter and middle-distance trips from September until the end of the year. Germany has cut all fares to €9, and Luxembourg has made all public transport free since 2020. So, we can do the same in Wales.
Secondly, personal debt. The impact of personal debt is an issue the Equality and Social Justice Committee has previously considered. The 'Debt and the pandemic' report recommended that the Government explore the feasibility of introducing debt bonfires in relation to aspects of public sector debt. This is a key proposal of my party, and I do look forward to the Welsh Government reviewing this and enacting this in the future. I’d also just take this opportunity to very quickly reference back my proposal for an extension to the basic income pilot to include workers in heavy and carbon-intensive work, who are at risk of losing their jobs.
And finally, the rent freeze and private renting. We need to think about housing and homelessness. I do agree that urgent action is needed to protect people who are at risk because of the very nature of being in private rented accommodation. Rapidly rising rents and a failure to act on eviction are the key drivers here. I believe it was absolutely the wrong decision to delay protection for renters against evictions to December, and I do think we have to ask whether the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 is even fit for purpose now, let alone in the future. We need a moratorium on evictions right now.
There will be people out there who decry any intervention in housing, debt or significant public expenditure, or subsidised transport. But we face a social catastrophe if we don’t act. The real question—and I’ll finish on this, Dirprwy Lywydd—is what is the cost of not acting to prevent that catastrophe. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The crisis facing us is huge. Inflation is at its highest point for 40 years, and has shattered all predictions made by economists. Forecasts show that it will increase even further. Energy prices have increased to totally unsustainable levels for most people, and the increase in that price is reflected in the price of food, transportation and other prices. All this comes on top of decades of salaries failing to keep pace with inflation, 10 years of cruel austerity from the Tories in Westminster, and cuts in the benefits of the most vulnerable.
According to the Bevan Foundation, around 180,000 households here in Wales now can’t afford some of the basics of life: heat, food or hygiene products, never mind luxuries. We are calling this a cost-of-living crisis, but the truth is that it is an affording-to-live crisis. That's the crisis here; people can't afford to live. Put in these terms, we see the crisis for what it really is, namely that capital is prioritised over people's lives. There is plenty of food available, there is plenty of energy available, there are plenty of homes available, but people are dying and are suffering because free-market dogma says that the value of these things is greater than the value of people's lives. That's the reality of the situation. And before too long, this too will be a crisis for the free market as people see that the order isn't working on their behalves, and start to push back.
In discussing this crisis and the inflation related to it, one central element to all of this that's hardly ever mentioned is the cost of putting a roof over our heads. I've grown tired of having to talk about this in the Chamber time and time again, but rents in Wales have increased more than in any other part of this unequal union, with people on the lowest incomes in Cardiff, for example, paying 35 per cent of their income on rent alone, and rent in this city has increased 36 per cent in just two years. A quarter of private tenants in Wales are concerned that they will lose their homes in the next three months, and this on top of the fact that they have seen huge increases in no-fault evictions already.
And for those who are evicted or are looking for a home, then the opportunities to find appropriate properties are painfully rare. Today, the Bevan Foundation launched its report on the housing crisis, looking at the rental market in Wales over the last summer, and found, believe it or not, that only 60 properties were available throughout the whole of Wales at the local housing allowance rate, and that there were seven local authorities without a single property available at the LHA level. We know that the waiting list for social housing has increased by almost 50 per cent, and that list is somewhere in the region of 90,000. In light of this, we must take action as a matter of urgency.
I'm pleased that Plaid Cymru's co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government is looking to introduce a White Paper that will include looking at rent caps, but we must take action prior to that. That is why we must look at freezing rents in the short term, and ensure that there is a pot of money available in order to compensate the social housing sector as they look to decarbonise their stock. Freezing rents would also mean that private landlords cannot profit on the back of the suffering of others during this difficult period. I thank Carolyn Thomas for raising this point earlier today, and I know that she speaks on behalf of the Labour movement in Wales in doing that. 
After all, we must bear in mind that the most vulnerable members of our society—those with disabilities, single parents and others—are most likely to go into debt and to fall into rent arrears because of low income levels. Such debts will have impacts on mental health and on the upbringing of children, and therefore taking action to prevent this will be an investment too in saving money for other departments of Government, ultimately. I therefore call on you in the Government to follow the example of the Scottish Government and to freeze rents here in order to enable the most vulnerable to survive this most difficult winter. I call on Members on the Labour backbenches to reject their own Government's amendment, and to keep true to those principles that convinced you to put your names forward as politicians, and support the Plaid Cymru motion today.

Rhun ap Iorwerth. No.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Llywydd. Can I start by thanking Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate? We've just had a very powerful debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on tackling fuel poverty, and indeed yesterday the First Minister also made a statement on how the Welsh Government is tackling the cost-of-living crisis, and seeing this as a critical priority of this Government.
People in Wales are facing the biggest fall in living standards since records began. Domestic energy bills have doubled over the last 12 months, and the impacts are being felt right across our economy and our communities, particularly amongst those on the lowest incomes and the most vulnerable, and that's been expressed clearly today. In this financial year alone, we as Welsh Government will be spending £1.6 billion on targeted cost-of-living support and universal programmes to put money back in people's pockets and to help alleviate this crisis. And just yesterday, the First Minister announced those additional three measures we'll implement—on the third 'Claim what's yours' campaign, on warm spaces and on foodbanks.
There's much we have done here in Wales, but we know that the key levers for alleviating this crisis lie with the UK Government, who've allowed this crisis to spiral and whose interventions merely paper over the cracks. The energy price guarantee by the UK Government is needed. However, the reality is that 45 per cent of people in Wales were already likely to be in fuel poverty following the price cap rise in April of this year. That's already been said. There is little in the guarantee to support those who are already impacted by the increasing energy costs.
The Resolution Foundation have predicted that when we take into account the energy price guarantee, and the expected reversal in the previous Tory Government's rise in national insurance contributions—we await Friday's announcement—on average, the richest tenth of households will benefit from these measures by about £4,700 a year while the poorest will receive £2,200, deepening the inequalities that blight people's lives. And as the First Minister said yesterday, the UK Government's decision to use borrowing to pay for the cap instead of a windfall tax on the extraordinary profits made by oil and gas producers consigns us all to a future of higher bills for many years to come.
I agree with Plaid Cymru that current increases in energy bills are unsustainable, and I agree that it's shameful that people in Wales are facing these increases in their bills whilst the fossil fuel companies are making record profits. So, we call on the UK Government, many of us here in this Chamber, to recognise the severity of this crisis on taxpayers, to rethink their approach to covering the cost of energy price caps and to tax the record profits of the oil and gas producers.
I also call on the UK Government to review the benefits system. Jane Dodds made the point about the £20 cut to universal credit last year, and I've also called for the removal of the benefit cap and the two-child limit to support families and to give children the best start in life, and to reconsider the recommendations that were made by the Welsh Affairs Committee for the UK Government to work with the Welsh Government on addressing all of the social security needs and responsibilities in Wales. I have on several occasions in this Senedd stated the Welsh Government's commitment to do everything in our power to support the people of Wales through this unprecedented crisis, and again make this commitment today.
But I have to say also that, as a Government, we're not immune to the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis, and just as inflation erodes what individuals and families can purchase, so of course it does the Government too. So, our three-year spending review settlement, which we had from the UK Government last year, is now worth at least £600 million less than it was the time we received it last October, because of the impact of inflation, and this gap is likely to increase when we see the latest Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts, whenever we see them.
But while we recognise the need to act, there are inevitably limits to how far we can go. Unless the UK Government increases public spending—[Interruption.] I think this is something that is so important, because it is about how can we actually reach out and make sure that our £1.6 billion that we've found to target cost-of-living support and universal programmes can actually put money back in people's pockets. And, you know, that does include the £330 million cost-of-living package.

Adam Price AC: There is one important lever that has been referred to that is in your control, which would make immediate, direct impact upon people's situation, and that would be imposing a rent freeze in the private sector and imposing a moratorium on evictions in the private rental sector. That wouldn't have any fiscal consequences to the Welsh Government but would have huge consequences for many, many families that are struggling at the moment.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I think it is important, as the First Minister did say yesterday on this point, that we actually do have a rent freeze in the public sector here in Wales until the end of March. I mean, these are crucial issues in relation to reaching out in terms of rent issues, which of course we will be addressing. But that rent freeze is in place. I think, just looking at our £330 million cost-of-living package—[Interruption.]

Adam Price AC: Sorry, will the Minister—? [Inaudible.] I was referring to an imposition of a rent freeze in the private sector. That hasn't been imposed by the Welsh Government yet, has it, and it wouldn't have any fiscal consequences, but it would have huge, beneficial consequences for families.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I mean, I think this goes back, I say to the leader of Plaid Cymru, to how are we going to get support in order to support our public services, because there is no indication that we're going to get any support from the UK Government on Friday in terms of action to support public services. Actually, of course, that does mean that we're going to have such a corrosive impact on our budgets, including, of course, our local authority budgets, meaning money isn't going to stretch as far as it did.
I mean, I'm sure you would join us as the Welsh Government in calling on the UK Government to uprate funding for public services so that we can address many of these issues and also look at all of the options and opportunities that are coming forward. But, I hope that you will also accept that what we are doing is getting money into the pockets of Welsh citizens: the £150 cost-of-living payment to all households; the £15 million extra in discretionary assistance funds; and, of course, our winter fuel support scheme, that £200 for which we've extended the eligibility widely, as you know. I think it is important—[Interruption.] I won't take another intervention because of timing. It is important that we put on record again that we have extended the eligibility, and obviously, that's going to be really important to reach the 400,000 who could be eligible as the scheme starts on Monday. I hope that you will all be recognising that and sharing that with your constituents because it now includes child tax credits; pension credits, which has been called for across this Chamber; it includes disability living allowance; personal independent payments; attendance allowance; carer's allowance; employment and support allowance and incapacity benefit. This is going to be a Welsh benefit that I hope the whole Chamber will back us in getting this money out.
So, there is a great deal that we're doing in terms of our Welsh benefits system, a single point of access, our benefits charter that we're developing, and also recognising that this is so crucial; it's a critical priority for the Welsh Government. We've established a Cabinet sub-committee on the cost of living, we've met today, and it will serve to strengthen all our interventions, indeed, with our partners.So, where we can, we will do more and explore all options and opportunities. There will be much discussion about this: what can we do and how we will deliver our £1.6 billion precious Welsh Government funding to address the cost-of-living crisis. But, it will be working with local government; it will be working with the third sector; meeting with the Bevan Foundation, as I did this week; Child Poverty Action group; National Energy Action; our commissioners; the Wales TUC. But above all, we continue to call upon the UK Government to use the powers only it has at its disposal to provide the urgent additional support that is needed.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Members and the Minister who contributed to this debate. Today, we've heard lots of stats, figures and accounts that set out the terrifying scale of the cost-of-living crisis, but none of this can truly capture or describe the impact of this deprivation and destitution on those who are experiencing it. More than four in 10 Welsh adults—that's 43 per cent of adults in Wales—have reported that their current financial position has had a negative impact on their mental health, with 30 per cent reporting that their current financial position had had a negative impact on their physical health. Poverty kills. There's no escaping that fact. And, as we head into this winter, I'm absolutely terrified—terrified—knowing what people are going to be facing. Good people. People who do not deserve this. The people I grew up with. The people I care about. Can any of us—any of us—really say that we are representing the people if we do not move mountains to solve this crisis?
We must act swiftly and radically, and that's why we won't be supporting the amendments tabled by both the Government and the Tories. To be frank, they are no more than self-congratulatory amendments. But here's the reality: patting yourselves on the back just doesn't cut the mustard, because even with all that's being introduced and being done, people are still struggling. Constituents are coming to us daily. One of my constituents had this to say: 'I worked and I worked and I worked throughout the pandemic. The bonus got paid to me as a wage. I lost all of my universal credit. What little of the bonus that was left over has been obliterated by the shocking cost of petrol and food, and all so that I can just keep on working to keep on surviving.' Another: 'We're care workers. We got the social care bonus payment. For us that meant £800 taken from our universal credit and our council tax support stopped. We still have no food, no money, no electricity. We work so hard to take care of people. Is this what help is meant to look like?'
Looking ahead to Friday, it's going to be a point in time for so many—a point in time where they get some peace of mind or nothing at all. And I have to say, I'm not filled with confidence for next Friday. It seems that all we're going to get is the same old free market, liberal economic rubbish that we've always had from that side of the Chamber, which does nothing—absolutely nothing—for working-class people. [Interruption.] Go on.

Gareth Davies AS: I've sat here and listened to this debate for the past hour with interest, and just once from Carolyn Thomas I've heard a reference to Vladimir Putin's war against Russia, and especially with the chilling words from the Russian President this morning, stoking war again with Ukraine and creating tensions with the west. So, are you not prepared to make any reference whatsoever to the war between Russia and Ukraine for any of this happening, or are you just going to use the hour to just bash the UK Government?

Luke Fletcher AS: Okay, well, clearly you weren't listening well enough, Gareth, because Sioned had mentioned that in her contribution. I would just say, stop deflecting all the time. We've seen a Prime Minister advocate for trickle-down economics, tax cuts, removing the cap on bankers' bonuses, and, by the way, no windfall tax at all on energy companies, who are making billions while people see their bills go up—billions, hand over fist, they're making—and instead you expect the people to pay. Get real. For God's sake, get real. I can't take anyone who is still advocating for trickle-down economics seriously at this point. It never worked, and it will never work.
What I would say to the Welsh Government is, in the face of ever-increasing hostility to working-class people from the UK Government: step up. The Government's response to some of the policies proposed by Plaid have been absolutely shocking. Is this the state of radical socialism in Wales? A reluctance to freeze rent and evictions in the private sector in Wales, where proposals to help people are only met with 'How are you going to pay for them?' That's not the language of socialism. That's the language of the managerial class, of people who have accepted unconsciously, or consciously, the ideology of austerity. To paraphrase, the language of socialism is priorities, and above all else, like many of the Labour Members in this Chamber, to be fair, my priority is the people, and protecting the people from the cost-of-living crisis—the people who thrive when there's a Government who looks out for them, and suffer when there is not. This will be a pandemic of a whole different sort. While the size of the crisis means it is impacting almost everyone in our society, it is absolutely devastating our poorest and most vulnerable.
We have already heard how children and young people in Wales are being disproportionately affected, alongside disabled people and renters. For families with young children where there is just one parent, more than one in four are struggling to afford everyday stuff—not luxuries, everyday essentials.

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention?

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course.

Mike Hedges AC: Would you also agree that probably the thing that's easiest to do and needs to be done immediately is to end standing charges? People are putting £10, which they've taken a week to save up, into the meter, to find out that a quarter to a third of it has already been eaten up by standing charges when they weren't using the energy. That's simple. It shouldn't have to cost the Government anything. They could add it to the cost of energy, but that would help poor people more than anything else.

Luke Fletcher AS: Da iawn, Mike. Just one more to add to the list of demands that Plaid Cymru are asking for.
I'll finish on this. Jokingly, in a seminar I had in uni with Richard Wyn Jones, he said that perhaps there should be a statue of Thatcher outside the Senedd—I will ask Members to stick with me on this one for the time being. [Laughter.] Thatcher was no doubt a contributing factor to devolution being accepted in Wales and this place being established because of the absolute hell the UK Government put working class people through during her premiership. They didn't have a Senedd then, but we do now. And whilst I would call on the UK Government to pull its finger out, equally I'd say the same to the Welsh Government. If they don't act, the UK Government that is, then all that will protect the people of Wales is this place. Support our calls and let's get on with it.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

12. Time allocated to the Welsh Conservatives

Item 12 has been postponed to 28 September.
We've now reached voting time. In accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting temporarily before proceeding to voting time.

Plenary was suspended at 17:26.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:32, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

13. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on item 11, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 11. Plaid Cymru debate - Cost of living. Motion without amendment: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour13, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 11. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Item 11. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8073 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that the current increases in energy bills are unsustainable and that they will cause financial strain and hardship on households, businesses, and community groups, whilst fossil fuel companies are making record profits.
2. Believes the UK Government is failing to grasp the severity of this crisis and that it would allow working people to cover the cost of an energy cap instead of taxing the record profits of gas and oil producers.
3. Welcomes the £1.6bn invested in targeted cost-of-living support and universal programmes which put money back in people’s pockets provided by the Welsh Government this financial year, including:
a) extending the £200 Winter Fuel Support Payment to 400,000 households this winter;
b) rolling out universal primary free school meals from September 2022;
c) investing £51.6m in the Discretionary Assistance Fund to provide an emergency lifeline for people in severe financial crisis;
d) £4m to fund fuel vouchers to help people on pre-payment meters and a fuel bank for people not on mains gas.

Open the vote.

I have one Member yet to vote.

Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 11. Plaid Cymru debate - Cost of living. Motion as amended: For: 27, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that concludes voting time for today.

14. Short Debate: Delivering on universal free school meals: The challenges and opportunities

We'll move now to the short debate, and I call on Jenny Rathbone to speak on the topic that she has chosen.

If Members are leaving, please do so quietly.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to each of Joyce Watson, Peter Fox and Luke Fletcher to enable them to contribute to this debate.
As rolling out universal free school meals to all primary schools is one of the most important and radical proposals in the partnership agreement with Plaid, and we've allocated £260 million to make it happen, we have to ensure that we get it right and actually achieve our policy objectives. This isn't just about making sure no child goes hungry in school; it has to be the way in which we transform children's relationship with food in the face of the obesogenic culture that encourages people to eat all the wrong things.
As the statement by the Minister made clear yesterday, the first milestone of all reception children getting free lunches from the beginning of this term seems to have been largely met. A lot of schools and local authorities seem to have been able to do this fairly easily. Eight councils have already extended provision beyond reception classes, well ahead of the Government timeline of April for both years 1 and 2 as well, so 45,000 pupils are already benefiting from this new scheme.
Nine months from the announcement is very little time operationally to achieve this. It doesn't mean to say it was easy. Two local authorities, in correspondence with me on this, have highlighted the challenges of sourcing equipment that's part of the legacy of both COVID and of Brexit. Anglesey reported overcoming myriad challenges around sourcing additional equipment as a result of the contract they've entered into with Chartwells, which is a subsidiary of Compass, who are going to run their school meals, or are indeed running their school meals.
In Cardiff local authority, every single school had to be surveyed to identify which were the top priorities for kitchen refurbishment during the school holidays, and getting 18 kitchens refitted within that six-week time span meant costed plans, procuring contracts and making sure they were completed during the holiday time. It was really no mean feat and seriously surprised the cabinet member for education that it was achieved. Cardiff also highlighted a longstanding working relationship with local kitchen fitting companies that enabled them to get the job done. So, the fact that one school in Cardiff and five in Bridgend are still serving pupils a cold lunch while their kitchen refurbishments are completed is really a minor matter. Frankly, the size of their kitchens is really a sideshow compared to getting qualified catering staff and ensuring that all children are served and have enough time to eat their lunch in the hour allotted on most schools' timetables.
I understand why Welsh Government wanted to start at the beginning, but starting universal free lunch roll-out in reception is a challenge all of its own. Four-year-olds are having to cope with the newness of the noise, the new faces, involved in the biggest transition in their lives. Also, being invited to eat food they may never have tasted before is a really big challenge.

Jenny Rathbone AC: So, we shouldn't be surprised that, in the first week of term, only just half the reception children at Tredegarville Church in Wales Primary School in Cardiff were eating the school lunch they were entitled to. It's difficult to understand the complexity of the reasons why the others weren't taking it up, but some of it is to do with the anxiety of the parent, who wants to ensure that the child is getting something they know they like. They didn't have the 'Will I drop the tray?' anxiety, which any four-year old would experience, because the meal was being served in the classroom for those particular children. And I'm sure that take-up will improve as the pupils see what their classmates are enjoying in the way of food and they begin to think, 'Well, I'd like to have a go at that as well.' So, it's really important that packed lunch children are not segregated from school meal eaters, because it also produces a disincentive; if your particular friend always has a packed lunch, you are going to have a packed lunch too. But if you've got free choice, then it makes it much easier to promote it to everybody.
It's a real challenge for headteachers, because very young children need time to eat, and the lunch break is never more than an hour. So, at Albany school, the reception children go into the dining room first, and are lovingly looked after by the class teacher, the teaching assistants and the midday meal supervisors, and that's necessary with children of such a young age. Based on my own grandchildren's evolving relationship with food, I sympathise with the anxious parent who ignored their child's free school meal entitlement and sent them in with a beautifully prepared packed lunch instead, which this girl showed me, full of wonderful vegetables and fruit—all of it untouched; I'm sure it was all going to go home. It's really complicated with very small children.
Bear in mind that children arrive in reception aged four with the eating habits they've acquired from birth. Toddlers will be obliged to adopt the eating habits of their parents—that's what they've been exposed to. So, what happens in households where no fresh fruit or vegetables are available because of poverty or of other complex reasons—generations of not being able to understand what is the best for us? Unless children at a young age are exposed to a range of tastes, they may be reluctant to try something new. Some even develop something called neophobia, which is literally a fear of the new, and others won't eat food that is touching another food—I know all about that—or will only eat specific things. It's really important that we do not use food as a reward, because otherwise we may be setting up really serious problems for the future. If you say, 'If you do this, if you behave today, we'll give you an ice cream', what are you doing? You are rewarding the child. The emotional response is that you're going to get a reward in something that's nice to have, but not particularly good for you. So, there's a really complex set of arrangements around weaning and encouraging children to eat a healthy, balanced diet.
It's probably the most important initiative we have, to ensure that every child gets a healthy, balanced diet through the primary school breakfast and the nutritious hot lunches. Brutally, we can't afford not to do it, because we can't go on spending 10 per cent of our NHS budget on treating type 2 diabetes, which is really driven by poor diet and the resulting obesity. We cannot go on tolerating the number of children aged five who have missing, decayed or filled teeth—one of the strongest indicators of food poverty and poor nutrition, which I witness time and again, every time I go into an educational institution. The teachers report that, yes, the parents of those children don't have any teeth, because what's going on at home is people eating all the wrong things and probably not looking after their teeth.
So, we really do have to question what health visitors are managing to do to really make a difference in their interactions with parents, to ensure that new generations of children are not suffering from the problems that current adults have today. And on the radio today, yet another report about the significant rise in a series of cancers, all related to poor diet—and that's across lots of countries, not just our country. We can't go on like this, despite the apparent ambition of the latest UK Government to row back on the obesogenic food culture that we have allowed to dominate our lives.
Developing healthy citizens is one of the core purposes of the new curriculum, and it's a challenge for all those involved in the education of children. We can't go on having children who simply don't know that carrots come out of the ground. The School Food Trust did a survey of English infant pupils who ate free school lunches. They demonstrated, in 2010, that they had tried food at school that they had not tried at home, and half of the parents questioned said that their children had asked for foods that they had eaten at school to be cooked at home. The most popular items—probably no surprise to us—were carrots, sweetcorn and peas, because these are rather sweet, whereas the least popular were aubergine, chickpeas and spinach. But, you know, the more that we encourage children to try, and the more that we involve parents in supporting their children to pre-book the meals that will make the child feel more comfortable, that they are going to get served what they wanted, and also minimising food waste—. It's really developing that family learning.
We need to involve children in growing food, as well as preparing it. That will also be a really good way of getting them to eat new things. For example, Cardiff built on the experience of the summer Food and Fun scheme, where children had enjoyed making and eating spicy bean casserole. It's now a fortnightly feature on Monday's school meals menus in Cardiff, where the chef at one of the schools that I visited said, 'Oh, I don't know if they are going to like that.' She is not somebody who likes spicy food, so you just have to hope that she doesn't influence the take-up. I'm sorry to see that they have put it up against tomato and cheesepizza, which is a challenge, I have to say. Nevertheless, you can see how it's such an exciting moment for really endorsing and developing healthy future generations. There is more that I could say on all of that, but I want to move on, really, because I'm going to run out of time.
Food procurement is the next step that we need to look at. Carmarthenshire has been in the lead because of some of the grants that they have had through our colleague, Lee Waters, in a former role. They haven't yet made any changes to school menus, to date, because they have had to focus on ensuring the roll-out of universal free school meals to students. So, they haven't amended any of their menus. But I was, nevertheless, delighted to see that on their menu is a lot of home-made food, and I asked, 'What do you mean by home-made food?' Home-made food means food made in the school, so the smell of that food will penetrate the dining rooms, and will obviously enable the cook to amend things. If kids don't like one thing, they can change it to be another thing.
We are very lucky to have people like Castell Howell and Harlech Foodservice as our food suppliers, who are Welsh, and who are really keen on the agenda to really improve food procurement. But we really do have to take it a lot further. As Carmarthenshire said, this is really about system change, and it's complicated. So, they are experimenting in Carmarthenshire to see how they can get local produce onto the public school sector plate, and they have used Government grants to look at this, working with food experts and CLES to do this. But we have to realise that, in the current context, with all the current problems, this is phase two of the scheme, and something that I'm really excited about, but it's not something that's going to happen overnight. So, thank you for listening, and I look forward to hearing other people's contributions.

The Member has indicated that she wants three people to speak, but as you can see, the time allocation is tight. Minister, you are not going to take 15 minutes, are you?

Jeremy Miles AC: No.

Therefore, I'll give a bit of flexibility. Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ve said it several times already: the introduction of free school meals is a massive step in the right direction, particularly given the challenges people are now facing. Of course, I’d like to see it rolled out to comprehensive and further education colleges, but this isn’t to detract from what is an ambitious undertaking in the first place. It’s something I’ve been proud of as a member of Plaid Cymru, a policy that we’ve continuously pushed for a number of years now, and it’s an example of what can be achieved when parties come together. We were absolutely right, as a party, to put this as our top priority going into those co-operation agreements.
In terms of the opportunities, the reality is that they are endless—for well-being, for the economy, for the future of Wales. Hungry kids can’t learn. Remove that hungry element and we begin to level the playing field—not entirely, but still by some way. It certainly was a lifeline for me. Perhaps my family and I didn’t realise it at the time, but looking back it was definitely significant in getting me to where I am today.
I know the Dirprwy Lywydd has said that time is tight. There’s much more I want to say. I’m sure he’s always keen to see me go over time, even though he won’t admit it, but I am proud of this policy, I am proud of the fact that Wales is leading the way here, and I am grateful that this is happening.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank you, Jenny, for giving me an opportunity to say a few words? And can I also pay tribute to your work on a range of social justice issues since you were elected, and for your role as chair of our cross-party working group on free school meals, which I’m really pleased to be part of?
School meals are of course a daily part of the diets of many children, and so it’s important that they are healthy and nutritious, to help promote good health in those who receive them, as well as the associated educational benefits. There is then an opportunity to really think about how best we link up local producers to deliver high-quality food and procurement opportunities, opened up by the new schools meals policy, so that we can deliver not just benefits to students, but to local communities as well. For example, the upcoming Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill will enshrine the principle of socially responsible procurement into law. That procurement should be about more than simply who provides the cheapest product. So, I really hope that local authorities will get additional support and resources to strengthen their procurement capacity so that we can secure benefits for all, and I’d be interested to know what work is happening behind the scenes to review what foods schools currently access, and the potential for local producers to secure more access to schools through those suppliers, like Castell Howell and Harlech Foodservice. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: Research has shown that many children simply opt out of getting their free school dinner—there’s been a lot of work done on that—and that’s because they face stigma from their peers. But this policy, this universal free school meal policy, removes that stigma, and that is really something to be proud of. We know that children like to fit in, and I believe that having universal free school meals will help to eradicate that stigma. But what I’m going to call for here is to ensure that we don’t remove one stigma and replace it by another. I’m going to ask here that schools will be providing plant-based options on their menu. There is a significant growth in the number of children who are now being brought up who choose exclusively a plant-based—otherwise ‘vegan’—diet, for health and ethical reasons. I fear that failing to offer at least one plant-based option on the menu could mean that those children who have been freed from the stigma of having to apply for a free school meal will become victims of another stigma, where that food won’t be something that they would opt for, and they are made to feel different again, rather than fitting in.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to respond to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’d like to begin by thanking Jenny Rathbone for bringing this short debate to the Senedd Chamber. Jenny’s work and passion in this area, and in the broader area of food policy, is obviously very well known to us, but I’d also like to thank her for her support and the advice she's provided as we implement this key policy area. I think the passion and the insight that you bring to the area was evident, if I may say, from your opening speech. And it is vital, in the way that Members have been speaking about, that we capitalise on the opportunities that this presents to us through the delivery of our universal primary free school meals offer. Equally, as has been mentioned by more than one speaker, we need to recognise and work to overcome the challenges that will line our path in doing so.
Yesterday, I updated the Chamber on progress made in delivering universal primary free school meals, a key commitment within our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. And in doing so, I highlighted some of the challenges that we've already met head on in our determination to support as many families as we can as quickly as possible, as the cost of living continues to rise. As I mentioned yesterday, that partnership way of working, that team Wales approach, has been essential in delivering free school meals to an additional 45,000 children in less than two academic terms. And it is right that we prioritise these efforts at pace, and we will continue to do that.
However, we are very, very alive to other aspects of this transformational intervention, which will ensure that we can maximise outcomes for all our learners, their families and communities right across Wales. While our immediate priority was responding to the cost-of-living rises, our other ambitions seek to reduce health inequalities, embed socially-responsible public procurement, improve well-being and address the environmental costs of extended supply chains. And so, universal free school meals also is a catalyst for pushing forward our ambitions in relation to the foundational economy, social partnership and public procurement.
But there are challenges associated with the delivery and commitment of this scope and scale. Firstly, if we are truly to reduce health inequalities, instilling longer term healthy eating habits, we've got to prioritise the delivery of healthy, nutritious meals. And in the way that Jenny Rathbone was talking about, this needs to be part of a wider whole-school approach to food education, connecting learners with the origins of their food, helping them make healthy choices, and emphasising the social significance and joy of sharing a meal together.
The pandemic, the situation in Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis and energy rises represent significant challenges to public service delivery, and there are also challenges in how we collectively embrace procurement approaches that benefit everybody, and which look at other broader objectives alongside price, in the way that Peter Fox was speaking about in his contribution. We've got to make better use of our levers to drive public procurement, which can then create benefits in other ways, reducing the leakage of money from communities and the environmental cost of extended supply chains.
And the boost to demand that this represents brings real opportunities to re-localise a more sustainable food chain, and increase Welsh food onto our public plates. These elements are front and centre to our ambitions for free school meals, introducing the possibility of a major step change in policy and in practice. But there are some barriers that line our path, and we need to address those: understanding the Welsh market and suppliers' capacity to grow and supply local, sustainable food is essential; education and upskilling at all points in the food chain are needed to drive changes to culture and practice. [Interruption.] Certainly. Do you want to make an intervention?

Altaf Hussain AS: Yes, is that—? Thank you very much.

You can intervene on the Minister.

Altaf Hussain AS: I was wondering, you're doing such a great job in introducing these school meals, but what we are missing here is: can there be classes teaching these children how to cook? And that should be one of the steps, so that we don't go on and on for these, and it should not be free. There might be then a time we can put an end to it.

Jeremy Miles AC: Absolutely. I agree that it is an important opportunity for us to bring a whole-school approach to healthy eating. I think it's absolutely one of the key opportunities.
The first opportunity that we have in terms of embedding healthy, nutritious food as part of the whole culture of the school is the update to the healthy eating in schools regulations, which we want to support with a national conversation, and that will see those regulations are brought into line with the latest scientific advice, and it'll help us reframe our approach to food education in the way that we've been discussing today. And I want to make sure that we develop those proposals through the lens and in the context of the Curriculum for Wales as well, because there are opportunities and touch points for both those policy areas. We will work in partnership with the WLGA and local authorities to provide the kind of challenge and support for menu design and certification of compliance with the regulations that will be essential to be able to move forward in this area.
And I think there's an opportunity to develop here a mindset of creating value through food procurement rather than simply looking at cost savings, despite all the other challenges that we face. And so, in the autumn, there'll be new legal guidance, developed through our foundational economy programme, which will support public services to buy more local, sustainable food. And alongside this, the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, which we've mentioned already in the debate, represents a real opportunity to strengthen foundational economy approaches in food procurement and then raising its profile across the entire system. There's a new procurement duty, which will help deliver socially responsible outcomes with social value at the centre, and there will be extra data requirements so we can capture what's going on in the system and help improve our food data reporting. We are already planning support to bring a more co-ordinated and consistent approach to public sector food procurement, which will help food firms be public sector ready, and this includes partnership work to develop a new public sector food programme and a public sector food strategy for Wales. And we're learning from some of the promising practice that has already been referred to in the debate across Wales, including Carmarthenshire and the council's work there to shorten supply chains, reduce carbon emissions, improve links in the food supply chains and build local supplier capacity as well. We're also looking at successful models of school meal provision in places like Malmö, in East Ayrshire, in Hackney, which emphasise the importance of education, upskilling and strong leadership in the system as well. And crucially, they also involve children in tasting new dishes, which Jenny Rathbone was speaking about in her contribution, and offering the kind of range in the menus, the seasonality and the provenance, and the options, such as plant-based alternatives, which Joyce Watson was calling for in her contribution.And finally, officials are engaging with Welsh public sector food procurement developments, working closely with wholesalers and suppliers to explore opportunities for switching to Welsh supply.
So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, through the terms and conditions of our universal free school meals grant, we're influencing procurement and delivery practice on the ground already. That's an initial step in a longer journey that will certainly require a united front across portfolios in Government, public services more broadly, and our partners as well. And we've already demonstrated what might be achieved, I think, when different parts of the system collaborate in this way, and I think at the heart of it, really, is the fundamental insight that this is more even than just an investment in a plate of food; it's also an investment in the well-being of our future generations and in the health of our economy as well. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Minister.

15. Short Debate (Joel James (South Wales Central))

Item 15, a short debate from Joel James, has been postponed till 28 September. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:04.